Performance People Podcast

00:00:00.000 — 00:00:03.440 · Speaker 1

So where does GLP ones fit into your consciousness?

00:00:03.480 — 00:00:25.320 · Speaker 2

Well, I think they're the most important medical discovery in my professional career. The government's failed miserably to seize the opportunity, so hardly anybody on the NHS has been on it because it's not easy. What we've done in the past, it's just a question of willpower. It's not. We're fighting the food industry.

We're fighting marketing. In a way. The whole world is against overweight people who are trying to change their diet.

00:00:25.360 — 00:00:28.080 · Speaker 1

Can your gut actually change the way that you think?

00:00:28.120 — 00:01:20.180 · Speaker 2

We've been told for decades that it's just about calories. A bit of exercise, the right drugs and the right genes. And that's all you need for sort of perfect mental and brain health. And we know that's not true. We've had this very primitive view of diet as being very secondary to everything else. It's not taught in medical schools.

So doctors don't know anything about it. When they don't know anything about it, they dismiss it. Aren't enough nutritionists and dietitians to go around? And it was, you know, seen as sort of alternative quackery. You want to make sure that the sources you're getting are reliable. If the data isn't out there, you do your own study and realize that everything else has been driven by the diet industry or big food industry.

So demonizing calories, encouraging low fat foods, we only have to look around and say, well, that's failed dismally.

00:01:20.180 — 00:01:25.460 · Speaker 1

I'm your subject and I need help. How did we go about sorting that out?

00:01:28.980 — 00:02:26.920 · Speaker 1

This is the Performance People podcast brought to you in partnership with JP Morgan private Bank professor Tim Spector is with me this week, which I'm delighted to have him him around. He can debunk a whole ton of myths and various things that I've got to throw at him over the next 40 minutes or so. He's a co-founder of Zoe, Doctor science writer, has written up teen books, and he's actually got one coming out very, very soon, which we're going to talk about.

And I guess so many people ask you about what you should eat. That's sort of the the first question that's on the hit list. I guess when speaking to you and having and having you in their presence, I sort of want to take that and move it on a little and talk about gut health and decision making, and talk about the idea that you can really influence your mind, your willpower, your focus by what you are eating on a daily basis and how that can affect in turn, age your performance.

So can we kind of start there? Can can your gut actually does it have the power to change the way that you do all those things, to change the way that you think?

00:02:27.320 — 00:02:29.240 · Speaker 2

Yes. Very simple answer.

00:02:30.200 — 00:02:32.760 · Speaker 1

Right now you have to extrapolate on that more.

00:02:32.800 — 00:02:47.839 · Speaker 2

Okay. Um, yeah. The latest science is showing us that all all the organs in our body are connected. And so we used to think of the brain particularly as separate to the rest of our body and needed special

00:02:49.200 — 00:03:02.019 · Speaker 2

magical properties to keep working. Well, that were different to the rest of the body. But we now know that it takes its inputs from the rest of the body in the way it's working and whether it's getting the right predictions and

00:03:03.420 — 00:03:28.540 · Speaker 2

so forth. And we know that the gut is the main supplier of information to the brain. So there's this big nerve, the vagus nerve that goes. It's like a giant internet cable that goes between the gut and the brain. 80% of the traffic is from the gut to the brain. So in terms of improving brain performance and thought and energy, it's actually crucial.

Are you getting the right signals from your gut?

00:03:29.180 — 00:03:32.300 · Speaker 1

How much are they able to influence one another?

00:03:32.780 — 00:03:39.580 · Speaker 2

Well, it's a two way process. And, uh, we know that, um,

00:03:40.940 — 00:04:23.130 · Speaker 2

if you know, we know from lots of very careful mouse studies by manipulating the gut microbes in mice, you can induce anxiety and stress in mice just by changing their gut microbes. And. But you also know that by stressing mice in these psychological experiments, you can also change their microbes. And then those microbes can then be transplanted in another mouse and cause anxiety.

So it's a two way process. And I think we have to realize this and stop always trying to think about what's the causal mechanism here, because both can be true. And that um,

00:04:24.250 — 00:05:20.990 · Speaker 2

but the thing that we we can change much more easily is what goes into our gut, um, rather than changing our thoughts, uh, or our surroundings. So that, to me, is the crucial part of this. And the anatomy suggests that most of this is gut to brain rather than brain to gut. Okay. But we all know that when we go into a, you know, from our old days or GCSEs or exams.

You know, your anxiety courses got to do strange things you don't feel like eating. You know, you definitely there's a there's a traffic that way. But also we know that if your gut is unwell, that gives you much greater risk of brain problems. Mental health disorders, it's associated with every single psychiatric condition is a dysfunction.

00:05:20.990 — 00:05:34.990 · Speaker 1

Of fundamentally what we're putting in. And if we get a great like you say, if, if, if the suggestion is, is that it's more gut than brain in that regard or it goes that way more, um, than what we're putting in, we can we can directly influence exactly how that goes.

00:05:35.710 — 00:06:29.930 · Speaker 2

Yes we can. Um, and I think that's the empowering message here is that, you know, we've been told for decades that, you know, it doesn't really matter. It's just about calories. Uh, a bit of exercise, uh, you know, um, and the right drugs and the right genes. And that's all you need for sort of perfect mental and brain health.

And we know that's not true. And that there's much more you can do as an individual. And all of us need to learn about this to to function normally, not only in our mood but our particularly we're finding in our energy levels, um, as well as things like appetite, which are also part of our brain, not part of our gut.

Um, and with that goes, you know, performance and, uh, you know, liability to all kinds of mental health problems.

00:06:31.370 — 00:06:52.430 · Speaker 1

Before we carry on a teeny tiny favor from me to ask of you. If you like what you hear or see in this episode, please can you subscribe to our channels? It makes all the difference to have your support. It means the algorithms pick that up and send it to everyone else who gets something from this episode two plus, of course, it means we can get the very best guests in the studio.

Thank you.

00:06:53.750 — 00:07:00.870 · Speaker 1

If your microbiome changes, if that's what happens, I mean, can you effectively. Or would your personality also change?

00:07:02.430 — 00:07:03.070 · Speaker 2

Um.

00:07:05.390 — 00:07:07.270 · Speaker 2

Yes, I think, um.

00:07:08.950 — 00:07:41.309 · Speaker 2

I mean, personality isn't really defined that well in, um, neuroscience. Uh, you know, you can have various tests and quizzes and things. It's sort of where you are at the moment. So if you can reduce by half your anxiety or stress levels, change your mood, alter depression, then in a way, by definition you will be altering your personality.

So I think that that is true. Um, and

00:07:42.550 — 00:09:22.950 · Speaker 2

you know, you only have to do your own personal experiment, you know, which is what I've, you know, I've been doing in the last 15 years, is doing a whole series of experiments on myself to see what changed. And the first thing I ever noticed was when we were in the early days of Zoe, um, we were piloting these, uh, blue muffins that some people might remember who took these, which were a standard meal that we gave to, like, 300,000 people.

Um, and I was taking them every four hours. Um, as the only thing to eat. And they used to massively spike my blood sugar. I have a big dip afterwards, and I was trying to write a book at the time, and I found that I couldn't concentrate. I had brain fog. I was just, uh, zero energy, and I was sort of on edge. And just 24 hours of doing that made me realize something I'd never really grasped before this real important link between, um, our mood and our food.

And really, nobody was talking about it at that point. And I think it's just because we weren't recording it very well. We weren't introspective saying, well, maybe it is somebody with this terrible food and maybe the current pandemic of mental health problems where, you know, 1 in 4 people are now suffering from mental health problems and many of them on disability benefits and having to leave work, etc., is, you know, that's only changed in the last 30 years is due to our terrible diets.

In that time that's changed.

00:09:22.990 — 00:09:25.390 · Speaker 1

And our convenience culture catching up with us.

00:09:25.430 — 00:09:43.190 · Speaker 2

Yeah, in our snacking culture and which is all part of it. So the the food environment, the food culture, um, that's bringing us down. And so once you realize that is true, then you suddenly see this other, this other angle to it. And I think that's where, um,

00:09:44.390 — 00:10:33.810 · Speaker 2

you know, we've noticed. And so I did my personal study on this. And then we started doing various experiments with Zoe, um, with, uh, our products. And we were thinking mainly about how does it shift the gut microbiome. But the first study we did, we, you know, we we wanted to test whether the Zoe method of changing or diet worked.

So we did a big randomized controlled trial, 350 people. And by chance we added, uh, mood, energy hunger into that. And they all got better in the, in the active arm compared to the control arm. Uh, we did a study of intermittent fasting, and those three things also improved. And we did a

00:10:35.130 — 00:11:47.020 · Speaker 2

subject of the book ferment. We got people to who hadn't been eating ferments to try having three ferments a day. and those that manage to do the two weeks eating three ferrets a day. 50% of them had a reduction in their, uh, you know, an improvement in their mood and their energy and their hunger. All these are all brain effects.

And they happened before we started seeing some of the other changes. So in the gut and the gut microbiome, etc.. So one of the first things you notice about people improving their their general diet. And by that I mean really improving their gut health, are these effects on the brain. So that for me was a real uh aha moment, realizing just how important it is.

And all these people out there that are complaining about energy loss and fatigue, um, they always put this, oh, it's just because I'm hungry. You know, how many, uh, particularly women are. So, uh, just just to be sexist, uh, you know, at 1030, say I need a chocolate or a best biscuit with my coffee or tea.

Right.

00:11:47.460 — 00:11:49.980 · Speaker 1

Then it becomes a habit and then it's a disaster.

00:11:50.100 — 00:12:16.060 · Speaker 2

But it was like, oh, that's normal. And then you resonate. It's not actually normal because people have a proper breakfast or in other countries don't do that. But we've got this into this culture of having a very carby breakfast, and it's quite normal that we just get this energy dip and say, oh gosh, I'm gonna need some jockey or a bikie or something, and to get me through to lunch.

And then you're on this, this roller coaster.

00:12:16.420 — 00:12:34.100 · Speaker 1

So what do those. You talked about that blue muffin test as well. What did those glucose spikes like you say, it really affected your decision making and your fatigue and your concentration and your ability to focus. Just describe what's going on, what's happening in here inside a person that that means that that is the effect.

00:12:35.780 — 00:12:58.400 · Speaker 2

Well, we know that 1 in 3 women and 1 in 4 men have excessive, not only excessive sugar spikes, but also sugar dips. Three hours after they last ate. Okay, so that's the key thing by which time people have forgotten all about what they ate anyway. And they don't associate it necessarily thinking about it.

So this is quite a critical time. And

00:12:59.800 — 00:14:10.099 · Speaker 2

what we think is the sugar spike itself. Make cause changes in the brain. Um, because our brains are very sensitive to energy change. They, uh, you know, 5% of our body weight. But over 20% of our energy, it goes to our brains. So if there's a surge of sugar going there, maybe that upsets it a bit. But it also could be the dip afterwards.

It finds it difficult to cope with that big surge and then a drop so suddenly saying, oh, we've got masses of energy here, no problem. And then suddenly it's all taken away as the glucose gets taken up into the body and out of the bloodstream, which is what it's designed to do. But it does this bit over enthusiastically.

And our brain cells, um, are reacting in a way that then says, oh, maybe we're not very well here. Um, let's just send a signal out of fatigue and, um, be, you know, depressed for half an hour. Let's have a little rest, you know? Uh, and I think

00:14:11.220 — 00:14:12.979 · Speaker 2

that so makes sense when you

00:14:14.020 — 00:14:59.840 · Speaker 2

think of the brain as this organ that's trying to work out what the environment outside it is doing because it's it's blind, you know, it's just this blobby thing in, in this bony bit of on top of our shoulders. And so it's got to just take what it signals it can get. And the signals it's getting. Are these changes in sugars for example.

May also be We did some studies show that also at the same time, if your fat levels are going up, particularly, uh, that can also trigger inflammation and which means the immune system might also be enrolled. So I think, you know, energy, brain energy levels, but also the immune system because most of our immune system is in our gut.

00:15:00.880 — 00:15:36.440 · Speaker 2

And so why is it there? We didn't really know. I never asked that question ten years ago. Yeah. Uh, but it's there because it's trying to pick up what our immune environment is. And if it's full of, you know, bad fats and, and sugar raises and it will just slightly go up sensing danger if you like. So it's, it's a way of alerting the brain that, oh, hang on, things aren't perfect here.

Go into some sort of very temporary shutdown mode. So we that's that's our best guess at the moment.

00:15:36.440 — 00:15:49.220 · Speaker 1

And like you say, if we're eating blue muffins four times a day or something like that, we do then experience also this brain fog thing. I do, I do wonder if we've got to a place where we've just completely normalized brain fog.

00:15:51.060 — 00:15:52.540 · Speaker 2

Yes. I mean, I

00:15:53.580 — 00:15:58.860 · Speaker 2

it wasn't a concept, I was it's not a sort of medical concept, really. It's a sort of new term.

00:15:58.980 — 00:16:02.220 · Speaker 1

But what does it what does it mean to you?

00:16:03.180 — 00:16:11.180 · Speaker 2

Um, it means inability to focus. Um, you're just really not performing

00:16:12.420 — 00:16:39.560 · Speaker 2

well mentally. Um, for me, when I did the muffin experiment, you know, I found it really difficult to write, you know, more than 2 or 3 lines without wandering off and, you know, really being unable to concentrate and do a decent job. And that's in a way, when it clicked for me that this could well be what people are describing.

Uh, but it's sort of linked to fatigue of the brain, I guess is the other.

00:16:40.600 — 00:17:04.720 · Speaker 2

Um, you know, as your energy levels in the rest of the body drop, maybe, you know, the same thing is happening in your brain and it's trying to deal with the inflammation, the immune signals that are coming, and therefore it can't really focus on the task because it's it's a bit like it's a milder form of when you've got, you know, a cold or a flu or something and your brain just feels like, you know, mush.

00:17:05.199 — 00:17:35.020 · Speaker 1

I suppose also what happens is that people have underestimated, um, maybe up until very recently, or maybe they're still in that place, um, how food can affect so much else. So, like, you talk about the brain piece, the gut piece piece linking into the brain, but also, um, our decision making patients, all of those sorts of things that are sort of emotional responses.

I think probably we've got to a place where we've sort of underestimated how much all of that can be affected?

00:17:35.620 — 00:17:39.700 · Speaker 2

Yes, because we always assumed that the brain was in charge.

00:17:41.100 — 00:18:32.500 · Speaker 2

Um, you know, it's some celestial body that, you know, makes these correct things and that it's either sort of mad or not mad or, you know, um, it's been deranged or not, but the fact that every minute of the day, it's taking signals from the rest of your body to make the right predictions that I think is a very new concept, and I think partly stems from this old idea of the brain as a sort of just a chemical soup, and that the only thing that matters was getting the chemistry right.

I think that's been shown to be old fashioned now, the idea that, you know, the brain is just, you know, a series of chemical imbalances or not, and it which sort of means the rest of the body doesn't matter.

00:18:34.050 — 00:18:59.010 · Speaker 2

but everything I'm reading at the moment shows. That's absolutely not the case, and that what's going on in the rest of your body is absolutely crucial, and your perception of it from a brain point of view is what makes you make the right decisions, right behaviors, etc. you know, and in a way, your brain is trying to be logical.

It's just saying, well, this is what I think is happening. I'm,

00:19:00.130 — 00:19:11.890 · Speaker 2

you know, my view is the brain is there to protect the rest of the body. So its job is to make sure that, you know, we live a long time and it will just do whatever it takes to do that.

00:19:11.930 — 00:20:05.470 · Speaker 1

I just wonder whether you think about, I mean, our podcast is called Performance People and the sort of people that listen to it are in positions of performance or where performance is required from them in their in their work, in their life at home. I suppose we all crave that. But some of them, um, perhaps CEOs managerial level, you think actually the sort of decisions that they're being expected to take or make.

How those could be materially affected by what they're actually eating, what they're taking in and what they're feeding their gut, and actually whether they might even make poor decisions because of these instabilities and sugar spikes or whatever might happen as a result of eating poorly. I mean, so how important is it that people in positions of responsibility, people who are relying on performance as they see it in a daily, in a daily world, actually really understand this and lean into this more so their performance is better.

00:20:05.990 — 00:20:27.709 · Speaker 2

Well, I think it's crucial. I mean, I'm sure a lot of people listening have been told that it's important to be fit and healthy and, you know, get some exercise that's good for your brain and your overall performance. That's been drummed into people, especially every January when, you know, gyms are trying to get used to subscribe and every personal trainer is on about it.

But

00:20:28.950 — 00:21:32.150 · Speaker 2

we've had this very primitive view of diet as being very secondary to everything else. And, you know, that's been amplified, the fact that it's not taught in medical schools. So doctors don't know anything about it. And as we know, doctors, when they don't know anything about it, they dismiss it. Um, they're just very good at giving medicines and talking about side effects, but not about lifestyle.

So there's very few people championing this. Aren't enough nutritionists and dietitians to go around. And it was, you know, seen as sort of alternative quackery, really to think that dark could have that bigger effect. It's only the recent science now that's really driving this. Um, but if you accept that, you know, from these all the trials that we're doing that you know, you can dramatically affect your brain just in a two in a couple of weeks or even less, uh, you know, change your fatigue levels, for example, or your mood even a little bit.

It's pretty obvious. That's crucial to your, uh, your mental performance.

00:21:32.150 — 00:21:39.990 · Speaker 1

So what can you do to do that? So, um, I'm your subject, and I need help. How do we go about sorting that out?

00:21:41.590 — 00:21:43.230 · Speaker 2

Well, um,

00:21:44.310 — 00:21:48.790 · Speaker 2

I would say first thing you should do is download the Zoe app.

00:21:48.830 — 00:21:49.790 · Speaker 1

I've done that.

00:21:50.790 — 00:22:45.570 · Speaker 2

Because. And listen to the Zoe podcasts, which are all about nutrition doing that. Um, and that allows you. It's complicated. So I mean, if you wanted some very general principles, I mean. So you've got, you've got your, you know, you start to get educated about the new science. You forget everything you've, you've learned before because it's probably complete crap.

You want to make sure that, uh, the sources or your you're getting are reliable. And that's really what we've been trying to do for the last nine years with so it is. If the data isn't out there, you do your own study and realize that everything else has been driven by the diet industry or big food industry.

So, you know, demonizing calories, um, encouraging low fat foods, um,

00:22:46.610 — 00:24:20.190 · Speaker 2

sprinkling protein on everything, um, saying that ultra processed food is not harmful for you. All these things are out there in the old literature and on still on NHS websites. So if you if you take AI that's going to use those sources, you'll yeah, you'll, you'll get very old fashioned advice which we only have to look around and say, well, that's failed dismally.

You'd be a bit of a sucker to take that sort of advice or do things like calorie counting or calorie restriction, which are proven not to work. And no sensible obesity researcher believes in it. So yeah, you've got to be very cautious where you get your information from. It's good from a trusted source. Um, but I think what we're trying to do is, you know, we're using AI, but not to scour all everything else.

We're using it to say, take snaps of your meals. Tell you what's in it. So you get a bit of, you can say, what am I eating? Which is in a way, with or without the app, everyone should be saying, what am I actually eating? What? What effect is it going to have on my body? Um, and you know, how is this going to help my gut health?

I think they're the sort of crucial things. So what we're talking about is, you know, how many plants am I going to be getting? So I increase the diversity of my gut microbes. So are you getting a 30 plants a week? Just having, you know, kale sandwiches every day isn't going to cut it, even if it's masses of kale, because you're just not getting that diversity of species of microbe.

00:24:20.990 — 00:24:27.810 · Speaker 1

Um, so which is why you promote the ferment as as per book suggests that process as well because you're able to.

00:24:27.850 — 00:24:28.170 · Speaker 2

Yeah.

00:24:28.210 — 00:24:30.490 · Speaker 1

And that's a load of stuff in the mix.

00:24:30.530 — 00:24:48.490 · Speaker 2

Yes. Well, I mean, there's a number of principles here to to increase your gut microbes. So you've got to think mindfully. Number one, have 30 plants a week. Um, eat the rainbow. So you're getting lots of these chemicals called polyphenols in either very colorful or very bitter.

00:24:48.530 — 00:24:51.250 · Speaker 1

Just explain what polyphenols do and what they give you.

00:24:51.530 — 00:26:03.310 · Speaker 2

They are defense chemicals in plants that protect them against insects and sunlight and etc. that when we eat them, we can't process it. But our gut microbes can use them as fuel, and they use it to then convert it into other healthy chemicals, because our gut microbes are essentially mini pharmacies.

And the more better we feed them, the more variety of chemicals you'll have in your pharmacy, your personal pharmacy, in a way to to fight Disease. Um, so polyphenols are good. Um, then you've got fermented foods and it's a different mechanism. Uh, so they don't build up the microbes themselves, but they, we think they mainly act on, uh, improving the immune system, dampening down all the inflammation that everybody in the modern world seems to have.

Whether it's from pollution, work stress, um, or food or pesticides or whatever, we're all slightly more inflamed than we should be. But studies now show that you can reduce blood levels of inflammation by about 25% by having, you know, uh,

00:26:04.470 — 00:26:14.709 · Speaker 2

several portions a day, every day, small amounts every day, long term. And we say, try and get your three portions a day. And that's what I'm trying to promote. And

00:26:15.710 — 00:26:54.940 · Speaker 2

so you've got, you know, three different mechanisms here. You've got your polyphenols, you've got the actual plants, which is different types of fiber which encourages different microbes to eat. You've got the fermented foods, then you've got other little tricks, you know. So yes, everyone's worried about protein at the moment.

Um, everyone buys any old snack bar that's got protein written on the label. You know, we're suckers for marketing. Uh, instead of doing that, any more beans, they've got packed with protein, but they've also got fiber. So pivot your protein. Don't just eat, you know, big steak. Um, do something that's also going to help you gut microbes.

00:26:54.980 — 00:27:10.540 · Speaker 1

When you talk about when you talk about eating, um, 30 plants as well. I think everyone goes, oh my God. But like, in what quantity. And and you know, and how and actually when you break it down, you realize how that is easier to do than you think it is. We're going to do a little demonstration later about about what that might be.

00:27:10.580 — 00:27:12.899 · Speaker 2

Yeah. It's very easy. I mean, I'm, I'm

00:27:14.700 — 00:27:25.480 · Speaker 2

often averaging now because the Zoe app actually allows you it by using AI photos. It counts how many plants you've got, which I find its best feature. I'm always averaging over 40 now,

00:27:26.680 — 00:27:31.120 · Speaker 2

which I thought would be pretty. It's nuts, seeds. It's herbs and spices.

00:27:31.120 — 00:27:37.800 · Speaker 1

So how much are we sort of expected to eat of any one plant? So we know what the quantity feels and looks like. Well.

00:27:38.360 — 00:27:52.840 · Speaker 2

The honest answer is nobody knows for sure. Okay, no one's done all that science to say, okay, let's give you, you know, a quarter of a teaspoon of this of your kale and build it up until it. But it's a small portion. So it's a cup.

00:27:52.880 — 00:27:54.080 · Speaker 1

Just eat some.

00:27:54.280 — 00:28:28.660 · Speaker 2

It's a cup. Yeah. But it also depends on the, um, concentration. So spices we know are concentrated often roots of vegetables. So they maybe have 20 times the concentration of a big plant that's plentiful of water. Yeah. So you've got to try and work out. Well, what are the chemicals I'm going to get out of here.

What's the fiber portion of what I'm eating. Once you've got rid of all the water and all the structure. And so it's trying to work that out. So a teaspoon of a spice counts as a plant.

00:28:28.700 — 00:28:37.780 · Speaker 1

And is that the same for somebody. I'm only five foot nothing. So is that the same for me as a female at five foot. Nothing. Um, next to a chap of like six foot two?

00:28:37.980 — 00:28:40.860 · Speaker 2

Well, it depends how big your guts are in comparison and.

00:28:41.340 — 00:28:42.860 · Speaker 1

Oh, I know, how do you know?

00:28:42.900 — 00:30:28.460 · Speaker 2

Well, you can have some medical tests to work it out, but there's huge variety, and it's not just your size. So it can vary by, you know, a meter or so, um, of how many, how our, how big our, um, large intestines are. So, um, the truth is, we don't really know. So, um, let's cover your bases and try and eat as much as you can, but realize that just a teaspoon of some things is still very useful.

And it's this concept of eating really look food with lots of herbs and spices that, you know, really interesting. Um, it's also tasty is also likely to be healthy for you. So Middle Eastern cuisine, Mediterranean cuisines, you know, where they're using a whole variety of things on your plate. So essentially it's more plants on your plate.

I mean, and the more things you can eat, um, to get that in, the better. And it's, you know, I've changed. I used to only, you know, what was my go to fruit? I said, oh, yeah, if you asked me 15 years ago, did you have a good diet? Oh, yeah. It's really good that, you know, what was it? Oh, I have tuna sandwiches at work.

Because tuna is good for you, you know, and have some orange juice. Orange juice gives me vitamin C, and I take a banana to work every day. That was it. Right. And so, you know. And now you look at that. So that was terrible. You know banana, you know. Okay. Get a bit of potassium from that. There's not much fiber in it.

There's a lot of sugar in it. Yeah, it shouldn't be your staple fruit. I'm not saying you shouldn't eat bananas, but if that's all you eat, it's probably not great. That's why

00:30:29.580 — 00:30:43.339 · Speaker 2

we need to be kicked out of our comfort zone a bit, you know, and start changing up what we're eating. And, you know, our view at Zoe is that the best time to do that is, is breakfast. Because you're in control

00:30:44.420 — 00:30:57.740 · Speaker 2

and everyone's got their fixed view of their breakfast. Many people haven't changed the childhood. It's still, you know, Coco Pops and, uh, you know, low fat milk and orange juice, you know. Or it's.

00:30:57.780 — 00:31:25.720 · Speaker 1

Is there any breakfast cereal out there that you would that you would feel comfortable recommending for parents of children? Because I look at our larder and it's like stacked full of a variety of different cereals. But you know, you try and do the right thing, but invariably the thing that they always lean into and the thing that they want is the thing that's probably not not the greatest thing for them.

I've started doing overnight oats for my daughter, which she really likes, but my son is a perpetual problem.

00:31:26.160 — 00:31:48.400 · Speaker 2

Well, if you don't have it in the house, they can't eat it. That's true. And children rarely starve. So, um, I think, uh, and you can look back in history and said, well, you know, before Mr. Kellogg came across and told us what how to change our breakfast, we were off eating, you know, the leftovers from the night before.

Um,

00:31:49.520 — 00:32:03.160 · Speaker 2

uh, you know, I, I changed to, you know, plain yogurt, kefir, mixed berries and, uh, you know, a scoop of my daily 30, which is what

00:32:04.240 — 00:32:30.500 · Speaker 2

gives me a high fat, high protein start, plus some plenty of plants. Um, other people, If you like overnight oats and you're not. You're not particularly glucose sensitive, I am. Then they they can work for you. Um, there are some processed cereals that are not too bad. Weetabix is one that I might. If I had kids, I might allow in the house.

00:32:30.540 — 00:32:31.780 · Speaker 1

Good. That's good to know. That's in the.

00:32:31.780 — 00:32:37.060 · Speaker 2

Cupboard. Allow the kids to do the shopping. That's the other thing. They never take them with you. That's rule number one.

00:32:37.140 — 00:32:40.340 · Speaker 1

Cravings. Where do cravings come from?

00:32:41.940 — 00:32:43.380 · Speaker 2

Uh, well, again, it's a

00:32:44.620 — 00:33:57.640 · Speaker 2

term that's slightly different to hunger. Mm. Um, so we all. We're programed to be hungry. Uh, cravings are often for a particular food or. And, you know, classically pregnant women are the ones that said, yes, I, you know, I've got to have this type of pistachio or I've got to have, uh, hummus or, you know, whatever it is, something a bit weird.

Um, so I don't think we really understand that. We I mean, we do know that about 10% of people are addicted to ultra processed food, and so they have a cravings for those artificial combination of fats, sugars and salts that don't occur in nature. And they're just thinking day and night about about that.

Um, so we think because of the these new drugs, the GLP one drugs, that it is that bit in the brain that is, um, programed differently in, in different people to run really strongly on it. But probably if you've sensitized by having been fed it since birth, ultra processed sweet foods, it becomes more of a very hard to kick it.

I think any food is off limits.

00:33:57.640 — 00:33:58.920 · Speaker 1

You're not demonizing the banana.

00:33:58.960 — 00:34:42.510 · Speaker 2

There's no food that's off limits, right? But it's the question of whether you have it occasionally or you have it. Yes, all the time. So, you know, all, all real foods. We should be encouraging to eat them all the time. So if I haven't eaten a banana for a while, yes I should. I'm probably neither a banana so I can eat.

I can take yours. Um, but. And that's the whole idea. Because most diets fail. Because people are excluding things and they're being told they've got to deprive themselves. And as their calorie count drops. Hunger, you know, racks up more and more until it becomes unbearable, though. So everyone loses weight for a few weeks.

But by six weeks, the brain is just kicking in, saying, you've got to eat, you've got to eat, otherwise you're going to die.

00:34:42.629 — 00:34:48.429 · Speaker 1

And so where does GLP ones fit into your consciousness? Where do you sit on the on?

00:34:48.470 — 00:35:25.450 · Speaker 2

I think they're the most important medical discovery in my, um, professional career. Um, they have the potential to totally, uh, change public health and preventive medicine. Um, at the moment, the government's failed miserably to use them correctly or seize the opportunity. So hardly anybody on the NHS has been on it, and there's no support for people on it because it's it's actually a perfect moment to transition.

People with obesity or diabetes onto a healthier way of eating.

00:35:26.090 — 00:35:29.290 · Speaker 1

So because if you're turning off savings, you're turning you're.

00:35:29.290 — 00:35:29.530 · Speaker 2

Turning.

00:35:29.530 — 00:35:31.090 · Speaker 1

Off the switch. Yeah.

00:35:31.490 — 00:36:17.390 · Speaker 2

Um, and so, you know, people who are constantly eating have got this little voice inside them saying, you know, go to the fridge. You know, you you've got to keep eating. Uh, wouldn't you fancy something savory? Now, you know, go and get some more Doritos or whatever it is. That switch is turned off so suddenly, um, they could switch their diet to something healthy that is gut friendly, that fills them up, that doesn't give these big changes in energy levels, their brain, etc..

Um, so, you know, I think that's where programs like Zoe should be used. You know, next to, um, GLP one drugs. And it should be prescribed by the government because comparatively, the cost a fraction of what those drugs do.

00:36:17.470 — 00:36:22.870 · Speaker 1

Just to basically, I guess, reset, reset somebody's system, reset somebody's program and thinking.

00:36:22.910 — 00:37:05.850 · Speaker 2

Because it's not easy. You know, I mean, you know, what we've sort of done in the past, it's just a question of willpower. It's not, um, we're fighting the food industry. We're fighting marketing. You know, in a way, the whole world is against, uh, overweight people who are trying to change their diet. Um, and you, you need help to navigate it all the, you know, the food labels are all, um, totally misleading.

Uh, you know, promises of vitamins and proteins and low fat and low carb. You know, it's all nonsense. So you've got to see through that. Just say, okay, I've got to follow this plan. This will tell me what to eat. Um, and AI and apps and what we need to get through complexity. And that's what AI does very well.

00:37:06.890 — 00:37:18.130 · Speaker 2

And we can't remember everything. And then once you get into it, you say, okay, this sort of food is what I need. You know, as you go on. You can use it less and less, but you need that cross start. Yeah.

00:37:18.290 — 00:37:42.850 · Speaker 1

The GLP ones have been around for a while, right. Because they've been treating people with diabetes for a really long time. So why has it taken so long? I suppose it's now it's now a very open discussion about them. Um, a lot of people are using them for primarily, like you say, weight loss reasons, but but why that has been slightly demonized, that people are doing that as opposed to just strictly using them for diabetic need.

00:37:43.530 — 00:37:59.810 · Speaker 2

Well, I think it's very cultural. Uh, in this country, hardly anyone ever admits that they're on them. It's like, as you said, a bit of a naughty secret. They just say, I'm just working out the gym a lot, right? Which is perpetuates the myth that exercise.

00:37:59.850 — 00:38:02.910 · Speaker 1

Doesn't see everyone around you. It's a couple of dress sizes smaller.

00:38:02.950 — 00:38:53.910 · Speaker 2

That perpetuates the myth that exercises is good for you because some people might actually believe them. Um, whereas exercise just makes you hungrier. But in the US and other countries, they are much more open about talking about it. They don't have this embarrassment. And it's something seems to be quite British, actually, that, um, people are pretending and, you know, it's the biggest secret.

It's the most obvious thing. And even after, you know, a year of someone on it and they've lost 20 kilos, they're still pretending, uh, you know, it's just going for a jog in the park that's doing it. Um, so we need to change that. And we need to say, well, there's nothing to be ashamed about. You had an overactive hypothalamus appetite signal.

You switched it off. Now you came back. We don't. You know, we're not doing the same for blood pressure tablets. Right.

00:38:54.150 — 00:39:07.690 · Speaker 1

Do you think it's because of the form it comes in? Do you think it's because it's an injectable? Do you think that's anything to do with it? I feel like if it was in a pill format, there would be a different association with that because you'd relate that to statins or whatever else you might be you might be taking.

00:39:07.730 — 00:39:32.250 · Speaker 2

Well be interesting. I mean, there'll be with us before the end of the year. They're already in the US proving very successful. So I think more people will be encouraged to use them anyway, because a lot of people have aversion to needles and it's seen as more dangerous as well. Um, which is not necessarily true, but, um, that, that could be that could be part of it.

But I think it's just,

00:39:33.450 — 00:40:37.190 · Speaker 2

you know, fat shaming, blaming, you know, lack of willpower. This, this sort of story that we've had for the last 50 years that's driven people to do calorie control. Weight watchers, this sort of stuff. Um, rather than just saying, well, actually, you know, I'm very sensitive to the food environment, you know, and the food companies that are, you know, are like the predators.

They're picking off these people and giving them false advertising and leading them astray. So. Nothing to be embarrassed about. Uh, but most people who take it at the moment, and I think probably 1.5 million people or have taken it in the, in the UK, most of them are stopping it, which is a big mistake. Um, some of them stopping it because they can't afford to go on because the prices have gone up.

And I can understand that, but other people are stopping it because they just oh, I don't like the idea of taking something, you know, long term. Well, you don't you don't suddenly stop taking your statin or your blood pressure medication cause you don't really want to have a heart attack or a stroke. Um, so we need to have the same.

00:40:37.230 — 00:40:58.460 · Speaker 1

You're right. There is a lot of there is a lot of rhetoric and coverage around, like you say, um, people that sort of consistency of use and whether they feel like they should be going on with it longer than a year and a half or whatever that might be. And then what is the what is the danger of effectively then coming off it that you just revert back to type, but you should have changed your habits by then.

00:40:58.540 — 00:41:32.900 · Speaker 2

Well, virtually everyone, um, their weight goes back up to where it was. Um, it's like this thermostat in your head. You know, you're changing the thermostat. Whack that. It just goes back. Um, so that's why I'm saying that if you're not using that time to change your habits and change your taste buds and, you know, get your 30 plants in and you're and get used to the taste of ferments, it's a total opportunity wasted.

And it's been no benefit to you at all. Really.

00:41:32.900 — 00:41:37.100 · Speaker 1

So you would like to see it rolled out much more openly and discussed.

00:41:37.220 — 00:42:28.600 · Speaker 2

So you it doesn't have to be just the Zoe program, but you should be seeing a dietitian or, you know, you should have a program in parallel to these drugs to make them long term effective, which, if they're used properly, would save the country, you know, hundreds of billions a year, hundreds of billions we're talking about.

Right? This is not trivial. That's what we're spending at the moment. On having the most obese population in Europe. And no government is ever talking about it. They don't want to invest in it because probably the benefits will come after the next election. So they won't see it. But it's just, you know, very small minded.

We need to oh, as a country, we're saying we need a better preventive medicine system that encourages prevention of health, not just having a, you know, a national disease service. We need a national health service.

00:42:28.640 — 00:42:41.280 · Speaker 1

And and also and also being just so much more proactive about that rather than, like you've said, reactive so that the problem's already the problem and then you've got to solve it. That's a lot harder than actually dealing with something ahead of the game.

00:42:41.320 — 00:43:14.580 · Speaker 2

Well, lucky. You know, since I've been doing this, I'm seeing really that people are more likely in this country to take things into their own hands and just do it. Not waiting for, you know, their GP or overpriced NHS to to do something because they're not. They're not. Even if they were interested, they don't seem to have the bandwidth to do it.

They're just struggling to feel, you know, get rid of just, you know, have enough ambulances and get the A&E out the way. So I think people have

00:43:16.020 — 00:44:04.160 · Speaker 2

got to take this into their own hands and look after their own health, realize they've got to change things themselves, get all the tools that are out there, um, to do that. And, um, that that just takes a bit of commitment and realize it's a long term job. It's moving away from this idea that, you know, all the dark companies made their money on six week diets, you know, get yourself a bikini, you know, beach body ready, you know, all this nonsense.

So you starve yourself for six weeks and then you you bounce back up. But we're talking about, you know, changing your food habits for the rest of your life and of your family. And I think once you do that, you really see the benefits and I, I. Now, you know, every time I'm doing a book signing, have all these people coming up to me and said, how, you know,

00:44:05.200 — 00:44:48.000 · Speaker 2

Zoe and myself have really changed their lives. And, and you do feel you've made a lasting change rather than saying, yes, I lost. No one ever says, well, I lost weight for, you know, a month. And then I put it on again. They say, you know, it's it's working long term. I've got a different way of thinking about food.

And I think this is why it's so important. Everyone learns about, you know, things like fiber, things like diversity, things like fermentation. Um, because we've got to become expert so we can understand our bodies so we can all perform better and have many, you know, ten more years of healthy living, which I think is the what we're estimating is if you follow our diet advice, you'll get on average.

00:44:48.600 — 00:45:18.300 · Speaker 1

It's really interesting because, um, I don't want to throw it away. The fact that you said that these GLP ones are a huge discovery and and our, you know, and I mean, just just sort of talk to me about why in your sector you feel that way that they are in your lifetime. It's so fundamental this, that this does, this does, um, that there's an opportunity here with this discovery to do something meaningful.

Can you just talk a bit about that?

00:45:18.340 — 00:45:44.580 · Speaker 2

Yeah. Well, I think you've got to go back and say, realize that, you know, a quarter of our population are obese. 1 in 5 of our children are obese who are going to become obese adults. And, you know, they will have struggles at working efficiently, not being disabled, increased mental health problems, heart disease, uh, increased cancers, all these things that come from this, um.

00:45:46.780 — 00:46:22.240 · Speaker 2

Obesity epidemic. And up till now, there hasn't been a treatment for it. Um, you can put through all these diet programs, you know. World's fastest loser. You can starve them. You can do all this stuff. But, you know, five years later, they will be the same as or or worse, because their brains are just telling them to eat more.

So. Having something that is very specific, that turns off that huge appetite drive in this people, is about the only treatment. The only other one was his gastric surgery, which worked very well actually, but again, got a bad press.

00:46:23.120 — 00:46:25.840 · Speaker 1

And is also fairly drastic and very invasive.

00:46:25.840 — 00:47:04.739 · Speaker 2

Well, yes. But you know, you could do it as a day patient now, um, and I do have lots of patients who have successfully done that. So I wouldn't rule out someone who doesn't get on with these drugs. It's still proven to work in 75% of people. You know, I've still lost 20% of their body weight after ten years. so it's still an extremely effective plan with not too many side effects.

But, um, coming back to the site so there isn't any other real treatment for obesity that works. This is the only real one long term. And so

00:47:06.060 — 00:47:26.140 · Speaker 2

if you say, well, you know, we don't like it, the side of side effects are about 1 in 1000 people get a severe side effect, a few others get nausea. And a lot of that is psychological and may not be real. Um, it depends if the GP or her prescribing it is positive or negative, you'll get a very different view of those effects.

00:47:26.500 — 00:47:29.860 · Speaker 1

Um, and presumably the dosage as well, because there are difference in dosage.

00:47:29.900 — 00:48:06.080 · Speaker 2

Yeah. And, and you know, there are going to be 20 varieties of these and you'll be able to change, um, you know, to tablet form from injection form to different ones, be able to titrate the dose much more carefully. So I think Compared to other drugs that we take, you know, a severe side effect risk of 1 in 1000 when you've got a condition like obesity, which gives you the same life expectancy as breast cancer.

Um, I think it needs to be taken, you know, much more seriously. And so that's why,

00:48:07.280 — 00:48:30.360 · Speaker 2

you know, I'm a big advocate of it, but only if it's used. Right. If it's, you know, it needs to be rolled out with a, a nutritional change program, educating people at the same time as giving them this expensive drug. Uh, it just makes obvious sense. And, you know, other countries are doing this. Um, and as usual, we're we're we're far behind.

00:48:30.400 — 00:48:46.190 · Speaker 1

But you're so right. And that it needs to come alongside something that that backs up, um, actually what people should be doing, because the default position is if you're taking one of those GLP one drugs, is actually just don't you don't eat because your cravings are suppressed and you don't need to eat.

So actually that is.

00:48:46.470 — 00:48:48.590 · Speaker 2

Just having Coco Pops, but only a small amount.

00:48:48.590 — 00:48:51.430 · Speaker 1

Exactly. So that nutrient piece it needs to be.

00:48:51.470 — 00:49:01.710 · Speaker 2

Exactly. So people need more education on this. And and there are increasing studies show that if you do one arm which is drug alone and the other drug plus nutritional advice,

00:49:02.910 — 00:49:16.630 · Speaker 2

not only the side effects less, but also the, um, the benefits. So the reduction in cancers, heart disease, dementia, etc. are greater. So it just makes absolute sense. But you know, um,

00:49:17.950 — 00:50:08.330 · Speaker 2

so we need to be talking about it more. We need to say, okay, let's be honest about it. But you know, anyone on it should be getting the best behavioral educational program to go alongside it. Otherwise you're not getting the full benefits. And you know, who knows, they might get a side effect after a year or so that mean they want to stop it, or they might find some very long term side effects.

But if you change your behavior, you know you'll be a lot better off. And I think that that's crucial because, you know, but we know that we can't really treat severe obesity with normal methods that don't work. So, you know, even Zoey plan doesn't work for extremely obese people. Um, the appetite signals are just too great to get to change long term.

Um, but combine them. It's a perfect combination.

00:50:08.490 — 00:50:46.870 · Speaker 1

Okay. That's really that's really good to hear. I think it's really fascinating to hear and actually sort of leads me to the final question, which is really about the future. Will we see based on what you've just said about weight loss, which is really interesting, will we see, um, personalized sort of programs effectively leaning much more into cognitive outcomes and performance than weight loss moving forward?

Is that also something that might happen in the future? So the focus isn't necessarily on weight loss, but it's more about if you eat better like this, you will get better performance, focus, concentration, willpower, mood, All of those things. Will that narrative take over from the weight loss one?

00:50:47.910 — 00:51:22.990 · Speaker 2

Uh, yes, but probably not in mainstream medicine for a long time because it takes so long to change, uh, medical views. Um, you know, as you said, these drugs have been around for about 15 years, only just starting to, you know, the average GP not being frightened to prescribe it. So it will take time. But in, in the parallel world, in the wellness space.

Definitely. And I think more and more people are realizing how important, uh, the link is between, uh, mood and food.

00:51:23.990 — 00:51:26.990 · Speaker 1

Brilliant. That's fantastic. Thank you very much.

00:00:00.080 — 00:00:16.640 · Speaker 1

What's it like being the man in charge of the Football Association? We're effectively eight different businesses and one. And the job is to be CEO across the whole thing. It can be a bit like a game of whack a mole, for sure. Yeah, we've had a little bit of luck. And along the way we had one final in 50 years. We've now had five finals in five years.

00:00:16.680 — 00:00:22.680 · Speaker 2

What's your kind of feedback? Been from the Lionesses about how they feel as well, that they've been able to sort of impact.

00:00:22.720 — 00:00:32.320 · Speaker 1

After the first euros win, a few of them maybe not feeling quite as well as they normally do. And yet that person I think was right. How do we capitalize on this? How do we leave a great legacy?

00:00:32.360 — 00:00:35.480 · Speaker 2

What does Thomas do that people don't see?

00:00:35.640 — 00:00:45.600 · Speaker 1

He's constantly connecting with that long list of 50 odd players, because he knows that you can't build that connection just in the handful of times you have them together per year.

00:00:45.640 — 00:00:47.600 · Speaker 2

How important is it to hold on to Serena?

00:00:47.640 — 00:01:14.840 · Speaker 1

That is my number one objective. Yeah, I land myself in hot water when I talk about it, because I think Serena could do any job in the world. She's got all the attributes to do anything. She knows that she wants to work in women's football, and she's passionate about it. And we spent a lot of time working on what is the ideal, characteristic and profile of an England head coach.

We then ran the top 50 coaches in the world through that profile to see who we'd end up with. I joked with the guys, we spend all this money until all this work, and then end up with a list that we could have come up with in ten minutes in the pub.

00:01:14.880 — 00:01:17.600 · Speaker 2

What does success look like this summer?

00:01:17.640 — 00:01:25.160 · Speaker 1

You'd rather have an expectation than not. It's only twice in history that a European teams want a World Cup outside Europe. There's a reason for that.

00:01:28.400 — 00:01:50.200 · Speaker 2

This is the Performance People podcast brought to you in partnership with JP Morgan private Bank. We've got the FA CEO, Mark bullion in the studio today, which I'm very excited to have you here, because it's not often that you sit down and have a great little one on one chat about all things FA. And I'm going to start with this question.

What's it like being the man in charge of the Football Association?

00:01:50.400 — 00:01:59.150 · Speaker 1

It's great. I mean, we've got a great team. We're doing great things and obviously the opportunity to do a lot more. So exciting times. World Cup on the horizon.

00:01:59.190 — 00:02:15.270 · Speaker 2

Yeah, there's lots to look forward to. People have often described it, haven't they, as sort of the impossible job. You've got to keep so many people happy. And there's so many different partners that you're associated with. Can you just sort of break down for me what the JD is like? What is it that you're supposed to be doing?

00:02:15.310 — 00:02:52.350 · Speaker 1

Well, it's a brilliant job in so many ways. I think people don't really understand the FA necessarily unless they interact with it. We're effectively eight different businesses and one and the job is to be co across the whole thing. So it might be one day where you're dealing with Wembley, another day where you're dealing with our coaching business.

We do 20,000 courses per year obviously. Then we've got the elite part, which is what people know very well, particularly the senior teams with Thomas and Serena. We actually have 24 England teams, so there's a bit more behind the scenes than that. And then there's obviously the commercial aspects. There's the regulation of all the games.

Then we've got our own competitions as well. So there's plenty of variety there.

00:02:52.390 — 00:02:59.030 · Speaker 2

How do you get it all done genuinely. Like how do you how do you divvy up what requires, what attention and when.

00:02:59.070 — 00:03:13.510 · Speaker 1

Can be a bit like a game of whack a mole, for sure. But actually it's all about having a great team. You know, we employ about a thousand people full time and 3000 part time. So we've got a decent sized team and um, we've got, yeah, a really clear plan to get things done.

00:03:14.750 — 00:03:47.750 · Speaker 2

I should say at this point, if you like what you hear or see on this podcast, please can you subscribe? I know that's something like nine out of ten of you at the moment are watching and listening, but you need to subscribe because it means we get the very, very best guests on let's Go Back. Let's work our way back to sort of way back when sitting in that whichever office it was where you're contemplating, you know, your future and you say yes to this, to this gig.

What was it about the job that excited you and wanted to make you, you know, get your sleeves rolled up and stuck into it?

00:03:47.790 — 00:04:30.390 · Speaker 1

Well, I was commercial director for three years beforehand, and when I was recruited as commercial director, it was always on the understanding I would be the internal candidate. When Martin Glenn decided to leave, and he actually decided to leave a little bit early and real thought, which was, well, are you ready?

Well, that was the question. And it wasn't something that I was desperate to do, but I'd really fallen in love with the organization, really enjoyed the three years and bought into the the vision that we had and the purpose that we were getting behind the organization. So I really wanted to make sure we continue going that direction.

So it's it's mainly that actually I would have been quite happy working with Martin for a bit longer, but the opportunity came around and I went for it.

00:04:30.390 — 00:04:44.150 · Speaker 2

I guess that's an interesting point, isn't it? I mean, can you ever be ready? It's a bit like when they ask you that question of you, are you ready to have children? You know, can you ever be can you ever be ready for something like this? Does does anything prepare you enough other than just being in the role and getting on with it and doing it?

00:04:44.150 — 00:05:10.670 · Speaker 1

I think I think it's I think you're right. Nothing really gets you ready for it. And it's not until you've been in the hot seat that you know everything involved. It was funny the other day. We were we had an internal team building session, and we were building a time plan of what happened over the last 7 or 8 years.

When you looked at it all, you were like, wow, that's been a lot. And probably at the beginning of that, you'd have thought that was not necessarily achievable. But no, I think like it's a great job. It's a great organization and proud to lead it.

00:05:10.710 — 00:05:27.030 · Speaker 2

What Martin Glenn's sort of words is he exited, you know, like some people leave a letter or a note for you or, you know, there's a there's a sort of a breakdown of the three things that you should probably definitely do every day. I mean, was there any sort of like, sort of salient advice that he gave you as he exited stage left?

00:05:27.070 — 00:05:42.910 · Speaker 1

Well, we definitely had a couple of conversations, but I think the main thing was good luck back on, and he really enjoyed his time there. But he felt his he'd come to a natural end. And because of World Cup cycles and that sort of thing, it was time for him to go. But now he was brilliant. He was very generous with advice, I guess.

00:05:42.910 — 00:06:04.380 · Speaker 2

I guess the sort of thing is like we've talked about, you know, you've got to just get in and get stuck in. But when you were looking back, like you say, I'm at that last sort of 7 or 8 years that you've had there. I mean, it's sort of unprecedented success. Um, and, you know, such exciting times. And like you say, can you ever have sort of imagined that that would be the time in which you were you were leading, you were at the helm?

00:06:04.380 — 00:06:51.220 · Speaker 1

Well, you hoped, don't you? And I think I come back to the point that we had a really clear plan. We knew what we wanted to do. We've had a little bit of luck. And along the way, particularly in tournaments, they've gone even better than we could have expected. I mean, we had one final in 50 years. We've now had five finals in five years at senior level.

So that's that's brilliant. I think though, we were confident in the plan, and I knew that there was potential for commercial growth and put it in a simple way. The more money you generate, the more you can do. So we generated a huge amount more money. We now generate 200 million extra per year from when I started, and that's allowed us to put little more money into women's football, which is enable us to grow women's skills.

Football. And I think at the heart of it, if you've got a clear plan, you can generate the money to then do it. It gives you a great opportunity.

00:06:51.380 — 00:07:09.820 · Speaker 2

Yeah, I guess you're right. Like you have to have that, but you have to have that business understanding in order to come to it with that. With that approach. And I guess along that way you're going to get various people saying, oh, no, focus on this or focus on that. How do you keep your focus absolutely lasered on what you know is to be the right path?

00:07:09.860 — 00:07:50.540 · Speaker 1

We're probably pulled in more directions most because we're a stakeholder led organization, and that's one of the biggest challenges. You get hit by ideas all the time and often quite good ideas. And all of the stakeholders certainly have their own viewpoint, which normally is quite linked to their own personal objectives and their own area.

But I think the key thing is ruthless prioritization. That's the only way you can get things done. We're really clear on what our strategy is. We publish it. We've got four very clear game changers. We know the areas of the game we're trying to move forward, and that allows us to say no and to stop doing things, which is hard sometimes, and to really put the investment into the areas we know.

Shift the dial, like women's football, for example.

00:07:50.580 — 00:08:01.060 · Speaker 2

Well, quite. What was the plan then? 7 or 8 years ago when you wrote that plan? What were those priorities that you wanted to get right over the next sort of five, six, seven, eight years?

00:08:01.100 — 00:09:25.370 · Speaker 1

Yeah. So winning the teams has always been a priority because obviously it's nice to win. But on top of that, it also drives more commercial growth but also inspires people to get off the safer. And we wouldn't have driven so much growth in the women and girls game as an example if we hadn't been successful.

But we've also grown boys football as well, so winning the team silver is at the heart. Yep. Then we have very clear strategy to make sure every woman and girl had a local opportunity to play both in their club and in their school. So we're now in 90% of schools throughout the country. There's an opportunity where girls have equal access to play than boys.

Then we need to transform our pitch landscape, and that is because our pitches are an embarrassment. We lose about a third of games in January February when it's too cold and too wet, which is crazy for our country with our resources, say, in partnership with the Premier League and with the government.

We've had the Football Foundation as our charity for a while, but we've managed to get a lot more investment into that. We're now investing about 100 million a year in building artificial pitches and improving pitches throughout the country. So we've got a plan to improve 12,000 grass pitches and build about 180 artificial pitches per year, and that benefits tens of thousands of people up and down the country.

And then the last one was fighting discrimination, just to make sure that everyone knew that the game was a game for them, and making sure within the context of that, we were getting proper representation throughout the game.

00:09:25.410 — 00:09:53.490 · Speaker 2

Can we talk about women's football? Because I feel like it's just exploded and for all the right reasons. You know, people are really genuinely getting behind it. And the Lionesses are leading that challenge and Serena in charge of them is doing an amazing job. Talk to me about her because she's an extraordinary person, doesn't doesn't talk much, doesn't do much price and publicity.

Only when the time time matters and the time counts. Just tell me what it is about her that makes her such a winner.

00:09:54.050 — 00:10:12.570 · Speaker 1

She's really special person. She'd hate me saying that. Why are we talking about her? Actually, from the moment first interviewed her, she really struck out. She's got incredibly clear plan. She's got a brilliant ability to interact with people and connect with everyone. And she's just a natural winner

00:10:13.930 — 00:10:23.970 · Speaker 1

in amongst that softness and brilliant people skills. She's incredibly competitive as well. Very clear decision maker, and I think she's the best manager in the world in her field.

00:10:24.450 — 00:10:32.130 · Speaker 2

What what does she bring to those women that she is taking on that journey with her that you think very few people can and do?

00:10:32.170 — 00:11:16.570 · Speaker 1

I think that's absolute clarity of vision. So everyone going into her camp knows her role, and they know the the role before the camp, and they know what they've got to do in order to improve. They know where they stand and people buy into that. And then she's a brilliant connector of people. So she's created a brilliant Environment for Lionesses.

We've put a lot of investment into training camps and that sort of thing. But she holds it, holds it all together and gets everyone pulling in the same direction. And if you look at last summer, you know, at no point did we feel that we were, you know, favorites to win that tournament or, you know, in as good a position as we could have been.

But the way they dug deep, the way lionesses dug deep with her at the heart of it, was so impressive. And they they got that victory.

00:11:16.610 — 00:11:39.130 · Speaker 2

I mean, of course, the media, everyone who is partaking in an interview or is an interviewer really desperately wants to be able to talk to her about this, that on the other. But she deliberately doesn't do much of that. Um, is that another sort of tactical play as well, that actually she's galvanizing herself and the team around her and isn't letting those sort of outside forces penetrate those walls?

00:11:39.170 — 00:11:56.130 · Speaker 1

I think so. She's also quite a private person, but I but I think she focuses her energy exactly in the right areas on on the team, on on the things that matter, and on spending a time building the connections around the camp and making sure that everyone knows what they're doing and is pulling in the right direction.

She's very effective.

00:11:56.170 — 00:11:59.210 · Speaker 2

What did that win do for women's football, in your opinion?

00:11:59.250 — 00:12:56.560 · Speaker 1

I think the first win really helped us turbocharge our plan that we bid for the home euro's, hoping that we would do well in it and it would help turbocharge the game. Obviously the win then took it to another level. And if you look at so many different examples, so we took over a couple of years. We took the average attendance in the Women's Super League from 1500 7500.

You know we got 70. We're now 90% of the girls I saw at schools throughout the country offering equal access for girls. So it enables you to bash away so many barriers, institutional barriers to offer the opportunities. We unlocked more funding from government and that sort of thing. So I think it just allowed us to put the opportunity out there everywhere.

And Sue Campbell was at the heart of that plan. She you know, she's had a really clear plan. Yeah. And she It always talks about the fact that a legacy for any tournament is created before the tournament, because if you do well, the playing opportunities then there for people to go and play. And I think that plan worked really well.

00:12:56.600 — 00:13:04.680 · Speaker 2

That's really interesting. Do you feel that almost off the back of that first victory, you were able to put those building blocks then in place so that you were ready for what came after?

00:13:04.720 — 00:13:20.360 · Speaker 1

Yeah, I think we were ready for that first victory I think anyway. Yeah, she put that plan in place. So we were ready for what was a tidal wave of interest in the game. And we were then able to put people into clubs and schools and create those playing opportunities. And then we built again after the second victory.

00:13:20.520 — 00:13:51.120 · Speaker 2

And what's your kind of feedback been from the from the women's squad, from the Lionesses about how they feel as well, that they've been able to sort of impact this next whole generation of children? You know, I my my daughter is now nine going on ten. Well going on 20 in fairness. But she's she's at that age where she's really sort of looking for female, you know, heroines to, to get behind and to be inspired by, and the Lionesses are absolutely central to that.

I feel like they've really broken through now.

00:13:51.120 — 00:14:32.120 · Speaker 1

I think they definitely have. And I think what's so impressive about them is that they really buy into the high purpose. They know they want to change society. Yeah. If you look at after the first euros, when we're on the bus on the way to the parade, a few of them maybe not feeling quite as well as they normally do, and and yet that person saying was right.

How do we capitalize on this? How do we leave a great legacy? And they then pulled together a letter to Prime Minister, which then unlocked, allowed more investment into pitches throughout the country. And it's just that attitude, I think, to always want to make a broader impact on society. And I think they use that for one of their own motivators as well.

They know the impact they're having. They know to change their driving.

00:14:32.120 — 00:14:55.160 · Speaker 2

I guess they're also at that pivotal time in the game, aren't they? In the development of the women's game. They actually will get to write what the future of the game looks like. I mean, the men's game is in a different place because it's had years to establish in that way. But I guess for the women of this generation, it's an opportunity to say, we did that, we created this, you know, interest, and we now need to be responsible to build on that.

00:14:55.160 — 00:15:16.080 · Speaker 1

And they definitely feel that. They definitely feel that obligation, because a lot of them, particularly the the players, have been around a bit longer. They've had to fight through so many barriers to even get their club place and so on. And the Women's Super League has only been professional for a few years, so they've only had the opportunity to earn properly for a few years, and they desperately want to leave the game in a better place.

00:15:16.080 — 00:15:31.840 · Speaker 2

So what is the plan for them and how are the FA going to impart that moving forward, given the fact that they've built this wonderful pedestal for, for for you to jump on? Yeah. How are you going to now make this really meaningful?

00:15:31.880 — 00:16:19.190 · Speaker 1

So in terms of the players, we don't want to lose them from the game. We're working with them on what opportunities they can have, whether it's coaching, technical directors in the media, working with us. So it's making sure we capture that generation of talent. And then in terms of driving the growth, it's making sure that we still keep going, particularly with clubs.

So with schools, I think we made great progress with clubs. We've got some amazing clubs that have driven a lot of growth in the women and girls game, but we've got some that haven't yet, so we've got to make sure that every club offers a female friendly environment, offers a full pathway of opportunities for girls all the way through the age group.

And and by that we will then make it, you know, so much more common to have girls teams throughout the country. We're really proud of the growth we've driven, but there's a lot more to do.

00:16:19.430 — 00:16:25.510 · Speaker 2

Yeah. Where do you look to which are the other nations you look to and say, actually, we can learn a lot from there or there?

00:16:25.550 — 00:16:33.790 · Speaker 1

I think America is the only one that's got bigger playing numbers, and that's because of a unique nature of how they fund college sport. And and they had a

00:16:35.390 — 00:16:41.590 · Speaker 1

piece of legislation brought in called title nine, which means you have to invest the same amount of men's and women's college sport, which means a lot of,

00:16:42.750 — 00:17:01.030 · Speaker 1

football scholarships for creative girls, which drove the growth of their game. But the point for us is that we we should have the ambition and we call it out. But until we have the same number of girls playing as boys, we've got a job to do. Until we have the same number of women playing as men. We've got a job to do and I think we have to have that mindset.

00:17:01.070 — 00:17:24.910 · Speaker 2

Have those targets, um, been sort of increased and changed as they, as they've achieved? Exactly. Because you must have started sort of, I don't know, 7 or 8 years ago with a plan that said this. And then they smashed through one glass ceiling and then through another by winning tournaments back to back.

So so how have you had to sort of adapt to that and therefore also how have that expectations changed?

00:17:24.990 — 00:17:29.790 · Speaker 1

So it's really nice problem to have isn't it. But yeah the team and they report on the targets are brilliant.

00:17:29.830 — 00:17:33.110 · Speaker 2

But it's suddenly me. But it suddenly means you've got to change and adapt.

00:17:33.150 — 00:17:49.070 · Speaker 1

Right. Absolutely. And how do you go further and how do you go further. Look, we've got the team are more dedicated than Dedicating anyone in terms of growing women and girls football. So they're they're looking for that ambition anyway. So it's not a problem for them to continue to aim higher. And they've absolutely done that.

00:17:49.110 — 00:17:51.270 · Speaker 2

How important is it to hold on to Serena?

00:17:51.990 — 00:17:52.990 · Speaker 1

I think she's.

00:17:52.990 — 00:17:54.470 · Speaker 2

Amazing. Her entire life.

00:17:54.510 — 00:17:56.310 · Speaker 1

Yeah. Yeah.

00:17:56.350 — 00:17:59.670 · Speaker 2

But you can never let her go. Ever.

00:17:59.710 — 00:18:18.430 · Speaker 1

That is my number one objective. Yeah. No, she's really special. We'd like to keep her as long as we possibly can. Um, broader contribution she makes as well is not seen by many, but she wants to make sure that we have more females coming into coaching, and she gives some of her time for that. And she's really invested in the whole growth of the women and girls game.

00:18:18.470 — 00:18:50.230 · Speaker 2

I suppose what's interesting as well is, is actually if you if you don't silo the two as well, men's and the women's game and there is some sort of genuine, um, want to impart helpful information that crosses over into both. Can't does she also do that? Do you also have moments? I'd like to know if you all sit round with a coffee and go, well, we've learned this and that's our take on it.

How can we influence what you're doing and vice versa? Because there must be stuff that the men's game can also learn from the women's game. Everyone talks about it the other way around, but there must be.

00:18:50.390 — 00:18:55.750 · Speaker 1

So one of the things we did was separated men's, women's, technical, but then created opportunities for them to come together.

00:18:55.790 — 00:18:57.270 · Speaker 2

Okay. What does that mean?

00:18:57.390 — 00:19:09.710 · Speaker 1

So the most obvious one is we have a thing called the Performance Advisory Group, which is a group of people where we have the aim is drive cognitive diversity, which I know is one of those marketing terms. But the whole aim is to make sure that we're not caught up in the.

00:19:09.710 — 00:19:10.790 · Speaker 2

Different people in the room.

00:19:10.790 — 00:19:47.140 · Speaker 1

Different people with different mindset. So we have some Michael Barber who's brilliant, um, general strategies used to be Tony Blair's head of delivery and has spent the last 30 years advising, you know, people how to run countries and things like that. So amazing. Yeah. Um, you know, general strategies, you know, managed by Dali, who's, uh, a tech entrepreneur who runs a lot of tech companies.

Then we've got Kevin Sinfield, who brings knowledge for rugby. Um, we've got Lucy Giles, who's a colonel who used to run Santa. So we've got amazing people. Damien Hughes, who brings psychology into the room. And then on top of that, we put on, we have, um,

00:19:48.220 — 00:20:07.620 · Speaker 1

Lee Carsley comes into him from the men's number 21. So we have Serena from the women's side. We have our women's technical director, Gavin, and then we, we also have Thomas syndrome. And actually one of my favorite things is watching Thomas and Serena, um, because we we actually allowed them to take turns who should drive the agenda for each meeting.

And they throw a problem in the room.

00:20:07.740 — 00:20:10.100 · Speaker 2

And so you have a central problem.

00:20:10.340 — 00:20:12.220 · Speaker 1

We have a central problem getting people in advance.

00:20:12.260 — 00:20:12.740 · Speaker 2

That needs to be.

00:20:12.740 — 00:20:26.700 · Speaker 1

Fixed. And then they come up with ideas from their different area of industry. Um, and it's it's fascinating how discussion we actually leave the agenda purposefully broad and they, um, they go in any direction.

00:20:26.980 — 00:21:04.180 · Speaker 2

Does it ever come up? It's something that literally, I've just stumbled upon in the last, um, in the last month or so that I'm now slightly fixated on is this idea that there's so little female data out there. So female physiology and the knowledge and understanding of all of that is in such short supply.

Incredibly, it's so surprising you've got half the population of women and yet only 6%, for instance, in my world of sports, nutrition is actually represented in terms of data pools. So how are we ever supposed to know if we're just drawing from male data? What women need and want according to their physiology.

So does that come up?

00:21:04.180 — 00:21:28.740 · Speaker 1

So I think if you look at overall physiology projects even less than 6%. So, um, you know, we're finding a couple of PhDs to look at problem of ACLs and that type of thing. So trying to build a bank of energy of stats. And then I think the other thing is from a strength and conditioning point of view, if you go back historically, the way it used to be built up was it was almost like, take the men's data and drop it down a bit.

It's like, well, hang on this idea.

00:21:29.140 — 00:21:35.660 · Speaker 2

My new favorite person is Stacy Sims, and she talks the whole time about women are not small men. Yeah. It's that it's that piece, isn't it?

00:21:35.700 — 00:21:54.700 · Speaker 1

So we have very specific strength and conditioning aimed at women's physiology and building that bank of data. And we do capture that and make sure we build baselines and have very specific plans all the way through our strength and conditioning team for them. And that was one of the reasons for also separating men's and women's technical team as well, to make sure we have dedicated resource on each.

00:21:54.740 — 00:22:17.500 · Speaker 2

Yeah, that's a that's a very good point. Good. Come back. Good and good analysis of the situation. Um, let's talk about the men's game, which, you know, once again has again, you've presided over this period of time in which it's been hugely successful. What's your sort of reflection on on what's been in the last, you know, in how many years you've been in charge for and how you've sort of seen that evolve over the last sort of 6 or 7 years.

00:22:17.540 — 00:22:49.330 · Speaker 1

From an elite performance? Probably, yeah. The men's team so brilliantly. I think Gareth was fantastic. He took, um, took the team, did it in his own way. And I think at the heart of everything he did built a brilliant culture where the players historically, I think there were lots of stories about them not necessarily wanting to be there or there being cliques and so on.

He broke all that down, made it feel like a club. Players definitely wanted to be there. They wanted to be there for the whole duration of the tournament and fight together. And I think the results that he achieved showed the impact that he had just changed the whole environment.

00:22:49.370 — 00:22:50.930 · Speaker 2

Did you see Dear England?

00:22:51.010 — 00:22:52.450 · Speaker 1

I have seen their England. Yeah.

00:22:52.490 — 00:22:53.530 · Speaker 2

It's so good, isn't it?

00:22:53.570 — 00:22:55.090 · Speaker 1

It's funny. Yeah. Yeah.

00:22:55.130 — 00:22:56.810 · Speaker 2

How much of that rings true?

00:22:56.970 — 00:23:02.890 · Speaker 1

I'd say parts of it. The general thesis definitely was true. There were some elements that were, uh.

00:23:02.930 — 00:23:04.010 · Speaker 2

Artistic license.

00:23:04.050 — 00:23:13.650 · Speaker 1

A little bit, a little bit, but it was good. It was a good story. And I think that, like I said, the central part of it, that Gareth transforming the environment. It's absolutely true.

00:23:13.650 — 00:23:41.530 · Speaker 2

And I guess when you go on a journey with somebody like him to lead England, you sort of what his his ethos of how he wants to do a thing possibly might not be instantly, um, what's the word appealing to the fan base because they're like, what are you doing? This is all different and it's changing. So how important is it that you as a leader And effectively, the man employing him is saying, it's good.

I've got your back. Go and do what you need to go and do. And giving him some autonomy to do that.

00:23:41.570 — 00:24:25.490 · Speaker 1

Yeah. I think it's critical that any leader has autonomy. And actually that's one of the conversations we had when Gareth decided to walk away. A lot of the people we spoke to, a lot of the coaches was like, well, how much autonomy and am I going to have? It's like absolutely complete. Um, we're never going to interfere with anything like that.

We want to hear what the plan is for sure, and we'll help you resource it. But it's your plan. I know that Gareth always felt like that, and he he did a great job, and he heard that. And there were a couple of tournaments where we renewed his contract. Then you get all the flak and then we reached the final and everyone says quietly, that was quite, quite good.

I said, that's all fine, but no, he did a great job and I think he provided a brilliant platform for Thomas to build on.

00:24:25.730 — 00:24:50.090 · Speaker 2

It is really interesting you say that because like like you say, you know, hindsight is also a wonderful thing. But actually at the time, like people were saying, well, you know, if people were being critical of that, you're the one that's having to make that decision and make that call. But you, you know, in your what is telling you, is it your gut telling you?

Is it the data telling you? What are you basing those decisions on, given that there's very loud voices over here and a lot of white noise?

00:24:50.290 — 00:25:38.610 · Speaker 1

I think it's number of things when when you're reappointing someone, you obviously want to see how they're doing. You want to see how they're connecting with the players. Probably the most important thing because results come from that. But also they can be a bit misleading. Occasionally there might be a tournament where, remember, Gareth had a couple of games where he tried some young players.

We lost a couple of games and old country and negativity. We knew exactly what he was doing and it was actually something that stood us in good stead for the future because a couple of those young players came through. So I think, I think it's very much about that. I think when you come to replace manager, then it's different.

Um, and we spent a lot of time working on what is the ideal characteristic and profile of an England head coach and making sure that we knew what we were looking for, and we then ran the top 50 coaches in the world through that profile to see who we'd end up with. Although I checked with a guy.

00:25:38.650 — 00:25:40.410 · Speaker 2

I want to know who the other names were now.

00:25:40.930 — 00:25:47.850 · Speaker 1

I joked to the guys, we spent all this money and did all this work, and then end up with a list that we could have come up with in ten minutes in the pub, but it was actually a bit.

00:25:47.890 — 00:25:47.970 · Speaker 2

Of.

00:25:48.250 — 00:25:58.050 · Speaker 1

Data. Yeah, yeah, it was better than that because what we knew from that was who would fit very well with us and what the strengths and weaknesses of each candidate were. So we did know a lot more.

00:25:58.450 — 00:26:24.410 · Speaker 2

And that's so interesting because I guess also you're not just picking somebody on the basis of here's the job and you've got to go and deliver. It's actually on a legacy built by somebody else who's got it to a place of X, and there are all these expectations. But actually this is where the players are now at.

And this is their their belief, understanding and everything else of what they're trying to achieve. So I guess it isn't just a clear cut appointment of a good manager, is it? How many other things are you considering?

00:26:24.450 — 00:27:20.760 · Speaker 1

Lots of other things. And what you don't want to do is throw out what's been achieved and start again with a different set of strengths and weaknesses. You want to build on success. So it's very important for us that we had another manager who would know and believe in the importance of culture and building an environment, because these tournaments, you're going to be away for a long time.

You know, the teams flying in the 1st of June. If we make it all the way to the final, we'd be flying back on 20th of July. There's a lot of time in there. It's 18 internal flights, 6500 miles. A lot of different hotels and so on. So you need everyone to want to get on. Everyone's want to be there and to have a manager who believes in that environment.

And in Thomas, we've got that. Of course there are other things. He's brilliant at developing players, he's very good at tactics and we're very comfortable with his record and big matches. But actually at the heart of it is let's have someone who can build on what Gareth got achieved rather than start from the beginning again.

00:27:20.800 — 00:27:34.960 · Speaker 2

It's really interesting because you talk about the fact that they've got all this time to spend together in a World Cup campaign. My, my thought on it was that, God, they've got an awful lot of time where they don't have time together as a group of players, because they're obviously playing for club before country.

00:27:35.000 — 00:28:05.320 · Speaker 1

That's really hard because you don't have the time to influence it that you'd want. Sometimes you don't have the players that you know you want to have in your final 11, but they're not available for insurance on. And at the same time, you're trying to try a few youngsters as well, or a few other players haven't maybe broken through.

So in amongst all that, you're also trying to build a team dynamics that is hard. And in the build up, it's hard to do that because you're compromising on lots of different other objectives. I think once you get into the tournament, you absolutely need to have that and everyone pulling in the same direction.

00:28:05.320 — 00:28:08.680 · Speaker 2

What does Thomas do that people don't see?

00:28:08.840 — 00:28:32.440 · Speaker 1

Yeah, a huge amount. And he's constantly connecting with that long list of 50 odd players, constantly making sure they know he's watching them. He's keeping that connection because he knows that you can't build that connection just in the handful of times you have the them together per year. So he's always doing that.

He's always going to games. Make sure that they know he's there and building that connection, which is critical.

00:28:32.600 — 00:28:39.240 · Speaker 2

When you when you had that list of 50, did you did you know who your top three were straight off the bat?

00:28:39.280 — 00:28:40.760 · Speaker 1

We um,

00:28:41.920 — 00:28:50.400 · Speaker 1

we quite quickly had a top five that we wanted to go and talk to. And I think it's one of Garrett's best legacies that pretty much everyone wanted to talk to us as well.

00:28:50.720 — 00:28:53.880 · Speaker 2

Yeah, you're absolutely right. It is, because that hasn't always happened in the past.

00:28:53.920 — 00:28:56.840 · Speaker 1

No, it was seen as a really attractive job.

00:28:56.880 — 00:28:58.480 · Speaker 2

Were there any women on the list.

00:28:58.800 — 00:29:26.320 · Speaker 1

That were not in that top five? No, no, it was something which I hope in the future does happen. And I've always said I allow myself in hot water when I talk about this, because I think Serena could do any job in the world. And she's like, stop telling everyone I can do any job. But but she could. She's got all the attributes to anything.

She knows that she wants to work in women's football, and she's passionate about it. But you can see how in the future we should get.

00:29:26.360 — 00:29:40.990 · Speaker 2

Anyone to benefit from that sort of thinking. That said, I actually think that's testament to her character as well, though, that actually there's a real job to be done in the women's game and actually, like, you know, it's it's important to say that one is not senior to the other. It's actually there.

00:29:41.110 — 00:30:08.110 · Speaker 1

Absolutely. And that's how I normally start the answer when I get asked about it. It's actually, you know, she's doing a really, really important job for us. One is not more important than the other. We want the Lionesses to do well in Brazil next summer and beyond, so we don't position it that way. And we're delighted that she's running Lionesses for us.

But you could get other women like Serena in the future able to run. Big teams and other sports have been far more progressive than that, than football.

00:30:08.150 — 00:30:24.190 · Speaker 2

Okay, so it's one to watch in the future. The other the other thing is of course, now the expectations are there. The bar has been raised significantly both by the women's achievements, but also by the job that Gareth has done with the men's senior team. So what does success look like this summer?

00:30:24.270 — 00:30:26.590 · Speaker 1

You'd rather have an expectation than not for sure.

00:30:26.790 — 00:30:27.750 · Speaker 2

That's a good answer. Yeah.

00:30:27.790 — 00:31:02.550 · Speaker 1

It's, you know, brilliant that everyone's so excited about going out there. We've got a team that we know can beat anyone on the day for sure. If you look at the kind of stats, sorry, throw them in the mix. But it's only twice in history that a European teams want to wake up outside Europe. There's a reason for that.

And it's the reason. The reason it's it's very hard to win and heat, altitude, humidity and so on. Just other countries are better at dealing with that because they've grown up with it. So it is going to be hard, but we'll be doing everything we can to go as far as possible.

00:31:02.590 — 00:31:26.150 · Speaker 2

And I guess the other thing we've got to think about is the distance between the matches. There's a lot of traveling going on in this in this World Cup. So how are you managing that? How are you making sure that the players get the best possible? I mean, I talk all the time about recovery. It's like my number one go to word at the minute.

But but how do you make sure that those players are getting exactly what they need so that they can turn up available every single time to do the best job.

00:31:26.270 — 00:31:32.470 · Speaker 1

That's critical. And we've got I won't go into too many details because there's probably a few things that are unique to us.

00:31:32.510 — 00:31:34.230 · Speaker 2

Your position might be listening.

00:31:34.510 — 00:31:56.310 · Speaker 1

But we've definitely got a really good plan and our strength and conditioning team is brilliant. We've had pretty much every player available at every stage of the last few tournaments, so it's a real competitive advantage. But yeah, you're right, the recovery starts the moment the game finishes. And a lot of our games, we've only got three days between the games.

So it's very, very hard to go from one game to another, often with a couple of flights in between. So it's critical.

00:31:56.430 — 00:32:04.110 · Speaker 2

One of the things that athletes, often professional athletes, often talk about is how pressure is a privilege. Do you feel the same way? Mm.

00:32:04.830 — 00:32:28.030 · Speaker 1

Yeah, definitely. I mean, in terms of football, it's funny how some people complain are always on the back page. It's like, wow, what an amazing opportunity. And what platform does it give you? Drive change. It's brilliant to have that level of interest. I mean, of course my inbox sometimes gets overrun with things that you don't want to read, right?

But if your starting point is that you want people to care about the sport, then it's a great place to be.

00:32:28.070 — 00:32:48.030 · Speaker 2

We talked about the fact that so many other sports like to be on the back pages. I mean, one of those sports is sailing, of which you and I have a common interest. Um, with a with a previous life in America's Cup world. So, so how on earth do you go from that to the far. Let's, like, track right back. How does that even happen?

What were you doing in America's Cup world that led you here?

00:32:48.070 — 00:32:49.270 · Speaker 1

Well it's funny. Yeah, I,

00:32:50.510 — 00:33:25.460 · Speaker 1

I left uni and actually started in sailing. Um, I worked on a round the world yacht race when I left uni, and that was amazing opportunity to start and actually meet lots of different people in sport. And after that, I worked in a couple of different sports agencies where I covered most sports, but I did. I did the 2002 America's Cup for the British team, did marketing communications for that, and then the one, um, in San Francisco.

I actually was involved in all of the vision setting and all the changes, which was brilliant project. I'd worked with Russell Coutts previously as a kind of client of the agency.

00:33:25.500 — 00:33:26.940 · Speaker 2

He was the Oracle CEO at the time.

00:33:26.980 — 00:34:00.580 · Speaker 1

Oracle CEO at the time. But I worked with him before he was that. And when he we I worked with him closely on the World Sailing League, which is what SailGP has become. And I loved that project. He's such an amazing guy to work with because he really sees the vision and sees the potential. So when he won the Cup, we had a quick conversation about her.

I wasn't really looking for a job, end up working for him and I loved it. It was an amazing opportunity to really transform the event and get rid of the old slow boats that race for an hour and a half miles off land. And actually.

00:34:00.620 — 00:35:07.340 · Speaker 2

Yeah, for for contacts. For people who aren't familiar with sailing, the America's Cup has always been a bit gin and tonic on the back of the boat in terms of it took hours to, like you say, win a race. Yeah, yeah, because because it was sort of like 12 knots or whatever else of of wind speed. And now because of that foiling technology and everything else that's come into the sport, you're now looking at these crazy speeds where they're, you know, really taking that taking that to the audiences.

I mean, what what let's just reflect on that 2013 Cup, actually, because that was the. That was the story of all stories. I mean, in a, in a, in a, in a context of. Yeah. In a context of sporting greatness. That was the comeback of stories and that, you know, just to, just to put some meat on the bones of this, you know, the Oracle team where I think eight one down at one point, at the crucial point against the Kiwis in the, in the final and from absolutely the jaws of defeat came this most staggering, you know, rising Phoenix rising from the flames where they were able to claw their way back and then win the thing nine eight, which was, you know, the stuff of legend.

00:35:07.380 — 00:35:22.020 · Speaker 1

It was great for the sport to see all that come through. I was really involved in the beginning of the event. So all of the changes make sure it was super fast. Boats racing close to land with some branding on the center of the country so people care about who's winning.

00:35:23.060 — 00:35:49.860 · Speaker 1

Making it much smaller team size. So it's very athletic. And all of those changes delighted about. But a lot of them are really common sense. So you looked at the TV figures and the old races were an hour and a half, and most people turned off after 25 minutes. It's like, why don't we have the race 25 minutes long or half an hour long?

Then actually, we'll keep everyone's attention. So I think it's like anything, if you look at what people want and then give them, you know, the format that they want, you've got a much better chance. And then I think obviously Ben coming through and

00:35:50.940 — 00:35:55.700 · Speaker 1

helping that turnaround with Oracle's win was amazing. Um, to raise the interest in the sport.

00:35:55.740 — 00:36:00.940 · Speaker 2

Yeah, it was incredible. And now what do you think of SailGP, which is kind of like you said, taking that forward as a as a series.

00:36:00.980 — 00:36:27.490 · Speaker 1

Yeah, I think it's great. I mean, like I said, I worked with Russell on the initial World Sailing League concept. And for me, with sailing, often it's the design that leads to the winner and the public don't get that. And it's less interesting really. So the closer you can make the boats better. And the thing about SailGP is all about it's meant to be the same.

So it's so it's you know, bestsellers win. And I think that just makes it much more interesting. So yeah. And I look forward to seeing it continue to grow.

00:36:27.530 — 00:37:05.490 · Speaker 2

It is interesting because you look across other sports and talking about sort of format changes and, you know, trying to sort of address all that. The SailGP races are now like 15 minutes each long. So you're really invested because you haven't really got an opportunity not to be because you're in it and then it's over.

So it's, it's it's sort of all in and it's easy to digest it. You know, when you look at other sports that have had to adapt and change as, as things have moved on, is that something that football will do? Do you think? I mean, when I speak to American friends, they sort of say what you can end up with, sort of like 90 minutes plus extra time and no goals.

It's like what's going on. And we all have grown up with that, so we're comfortable with it. But do you think that will have to evolve and change?

00:37:05.490 — 00:38:03.730 · Speaker 1

I think it has to. Um, I think there's two things. One, the format sport, and second is how you deliver it to people. So we know that under 25 year olds don't own TVs and got an attention span of 2.5 minutes max. So making sure you create opportunities for them both to play, but also to watch in a way that they want is really important.

By the way, we've driven such huge growth in participation. So 25% over the last five years is to women and girls being important to that. But boys football is growing as well, and it's by offering what we call flexible playing opportunities. So I think football's like many other sports where it historically said, okay, if you want to play 11 a side, um, at 3:00 on Saturday with a sport for you, it's like, well, actually I want to do what I want, when I want.

And a lot of the flexible playing options are right, no matter what format the sport you want to play, when you want to play it. We've got to make sure the opportunity is there for you. And one of the things we bring in next year for the youngest kids is 3V3, because we know that resonates really well.

00:38:03.930 — 00:38:05.010 · Speaker 2

Three. Three.

00:38:05.050 — 00:38:05.690 · Speaker 1

Yeah.

00:38:05.850 — 00:38:07.330 · Speaker 2

Is that as simple as it sounds?

00:38:07.370 — 00:39:07.530 · Speaker 1

Really simple. So it's 3V3. Um, and if you look at how that's worked in basketball, it's been transformational. So making sure that kids at a very young age get all the interaction with the ball that they should get, and it's much more exciting game for them. But short, sharp game. And then they go three, three, three, five, 45, 77, 99.

But the important thing is, if they only want to play 77, there should be an opportunity for them to play 77 forever. And they don't have to always aspire to play 1111, because a lot of things about the smaller format so that it's shorter, sharper, more exciting, they touch the ball more if that's what appeals to them.

Let's let them play that forever. And the same way that five side's been phenomenally successful, a lot of people, yes, they might play all the way through youth when they're young, but then they get a career and they go and live in a city, and all they want to do is play Wednesday nights for an hour, probably five is brilliant.

So I think just having a kind of player first, fan first or consumer first attitude is really important. And make sure you find the opportunity.

00:39:07.570 — 00:39:25.130 · Speaker 2

Where professional football, um, offers, you know, a 90 minute version with the full the full complement. And then there's also other versions of that which are also professionalized. Is there space for like 92 league clubs in the country? Is there room for that?

00:39:25.170 — 00:40:10.210 · Speaker 1

I think it's inevitable that that happens. Yeah I do, and then you'll get five side competitions and so on and you can see the highest level. Yeah, I think so. I think it will happen I think football in any world. Right. The, the one that's biggest in the category. It's always the last to innovate. And I think you've seen other sports like cricket's been brilliant innovation savings been great innovation.

But as they come through I think football needs to look at that and go, right, okay. Actually if people only ever want to watch 15 minutes each way, three a side, five aside, let's have a look at it. And some of the, um, the way that kids consume content now as well, they want to watch freestylers, they want to watch fun and tricks and whatever.

So it's a different form of the game. And I think we all need to adapt to that.

00:40:10.210 — 00:40:56.160 · Speaker 2

That's really interesting. So you've got to be really open about what that future might look like. Also, you mentioned sort of the television angle of that as well, and you come with your marketing comms background as well that, that, um, version of a thing with, you see, with the impact that Drive to Survivors has had on Netflix and Formula One has been extraordinary in terms of reaching that American audience and the growth of younger people watching that weren't necessarily into Formula One because it was deemed very technical and they couldn't get in.

Now they've got that moment of entry. Yeah. Um, down, down with football. Is there a version of that coming? It feels like there's this absolutely, massively brilliant opportunity to cover every single football club in the league and to do that with those. Is that going to happen ever?

00:40:56.200 — 00:41:51.560 · Speaker 1

I think the way that football approached it, it's a lot of clubs have done their own thing and you've seen a few all or nothing type series and that type of thing with us. We've balanced it up in a slightly different way because our teams together for such a short time in a tournament. So the way we've done it is use our own content team.

And actually one of the big things we changed over the last seven years, giving way more access to the public, to our team. So we do a half an hour daily show live on YouTube, on our own channels, and we do a huge amount of our own content just so that people get to know the individuals behind. And I think that's really helped change the perception of our teams and on our own channels.

I think we've got 550 million views in the last, last tournament, and that will grow exponentially in this tournament. And I think it's on us to make sure that we continue offering that level of access. So fans always feel like they're connected with the players and the team and that they can they they feel like it's their team and that's really important.

00:41:51.600 — 00:41:58.280 · Speaker 2

Just as business has always taken lessons from sport, I guess sport can take a ton of lessons from business as well, I think.

00:41:58.320 — 00:42:34.440 · Speaker 1

Definitely. I think you have to start from the point of view. I'm a marketer at heart, but marketing is really simple. So you figure out what people want and then you give it to them. It's not that more complicated than that. So I think sport needs to take that approach and work out how to provide people what they want, when they want, and how they want to watch it.

So if that's just watching online, if that's just watching highlights, if that's then being served content instantly on the phone in a personalized way. Then I think that's how it has to be done. Or if it's people want to sit at home and choose their own TV angle, or if they want to watch, you know, in the future through VR headsets and that type of thing.

We've just got to give people what they want.

00:42:34.640 — 00:42:38.880 · Speaker 2

How do you measure return on investment with something like the FA?

00:42:38.920 — 00:43:48.270 · Speaker 1

So hardest thing when you look across eight different businesses because there's not one standard ROI model. You know, if we were selling cans of a drink, then obviously, you know, if I put more money here, I'm going to produce more and sell more, and my marketing will drive more sales. It's not like that.

We're having to compare investment decisions. Where should we give the technical team another five physios and soft tissue masses? Or do we want to put more money into building pictures, or do we want to put more money into Wembley and improving the lifts and the escalators? You know, they're so different in terms of what you achieve from them.

So we actually step back and go, right, what are the big things we want to shift? What are what are the things that in four years time, we want to have done and really focusing narrowly on those and then making sure that that's where our investment goes. And I think the kind of cop out way is trying to bit of everything.

And that's where I think you fail. And whilst it's not universally popular, you've got to say no to a lot of things and really focus your investment in those projects. And then each of those projects will have an ROI attached to it and a KPI attached to it. But choosing between the different projects is where it's hard.

00:43:48.310 — 00:44:06.070 · Speaker 2

I guess this might answer the next question, but in my head I'm wondering what the biggest lesson is that you've you've learned in your tenure. Like, what's the thing that stands out, as you know, and perhaps it's unexpected or it's expected, but actually what's what's something that you've gone, God, I've, you know, that has taught me a great deal and I can sort of use that moving forward.

00:44:06.110 — 00:44:57.350 · Speaker 1

Yeah. I think you probably take your your question on the business side of things. If you look at women's football as being a consumer product, right. And clearly it's way more important than that. But actually, if you say I've got two products, one is really big and really stable, and the other one's huge growth, then actually putting a huge amount of investment into the growth one that's quite sensible.

And that's not universally popular because a lot of the men's game doesn't like how much money we invest in the women's game, but I try and rationalize it in that way from a business point of view. And I think that's where we've seen the returns. And look, we're still at the beginning of the journey there.

It will drive a lot more commercial return in the future, but you can see the huge growth in participation coming from that. So I think that's the lesson. It's like, really be clear what you're trying to do, invest in it and the results will come.

00:44:57.390 — 00:45:09.910 · Speaker 2

Yeah. That's interesting that you say that isn't it? It's um it's it's right now. I mean, we're we're living in this moment where it's there have been huge achievements in women's football, but right now, commercially, it's right at the beginning of its journey.

00:45:09.950 — 00:45:31.270 · Speaker 1

You'd be amazed how quite conservative some people in football are when you suggest some radical alternatives. So they're like, yeah, we need to innovate. How about this? I'm not quite comfortable with that. So I think what's really important for women's football is to grow very quickly commercially, but also keep saying our identity.

So take the best things from the men's game but don't copy them all. And that's how it'll be really successful.

00:45:31.630 — 00:45:40.990 · Speaker 2

What do you think you've learned from other sports? Like you say, you've been involved in sailing and other stuff as well. So what? What do you think you've been able to sort of take and pull across from those things?

00:45:41.190 — 00:46:03.670 · Speaker 1

I think it's that that mindset of looking at the player and the fan and being orientated towards them, because I think other sports being so much quicker to adapt to changes, you can see that are required and, and I think that's how football has to go. And I think that's how we grown. Grassroots participation.

We now need to apply that lens to pro football.

00:46:03.670 — 00:46:29.030 · Speaker 2

I'm really encouraged and slightly surprised by how actually um, forward thinking. That sounds like it is within the organization, because I think most people would assume that actually we've got a game that works for us. Commercially viable is producing those results and that return investment.

Why change anything? But actually, I think, like you've just said and iterated on, it's like it's it needs to keep up with the times and not not slow down.

00:46:29.070 — 00:46:48.830 · Speaker 1

Yeah it does. And it's still brilliant. Like, um, this is still brilliant, but it doesn't mean that everyone wants to play it and we should make sure they can play whatever they want. And and it's not in time necessarily what people want to watch. And I think some sports have been brilliant where they've almost used shorter formats as an entry level into the sport, and then got people interested in the longer format.

00:46:48.870 — 00:47:02.470 · Speaker 2

You wouldn't have those moments like we had at the end of the Scottish Football League where you're thinking, oh my God, of course hearts have got this, and then Celtic have a last gasp penalty and then take it to the final game. And you wouldn't have those moments if you didn't have the long form of the game.

00:47:02.510 — 00:47:09.260 · Speaker 1

That's true. And I think for me it's about adding rather than taking away and making sure there's something that fits everyone and what they want.

00:47:09.300 — 00:47:13.380 · Speaker 2

Final question what's the one question that I should have asked that I haven't?

00:47:15.300 — 00:47:28.660 · Speaker 1

Um, I guess the kind of what's next? How do we improve the organization further and how do we keep breaking boundaries, really? And and glad you haven't asked about AI, because that's the one I'm still trying to get my head around. How will we maximize the potential?

00:47:28.700 — 00:47:29.100 · Speaker 2

Just ask.

00:47:29.100 — 00:47:32.820 · Speaker 1

Claude. Yeah. Type it in. Ask what the answer is. Yeah.

00:47:32.820 — 00:47:33.780 · Speaker 2

What can we do next?

00:47:33.780 — 00:47:35.620 · Speaker 1

But that's definitely one to get your head around.

00:47:35.660 — 00:47:51.220 · Speaker 2

Okay, well, look, I'm super optimistic about this summer and the World Cup. I think it's going to be fascinating to see what we're able to do. And if Thomas can sort of take that, take that legacy from Gareth Southgate and move it all forward, be brilliant to see. Um, yeah, really looking forward to it. Thank you so much for coming on.

00:47:51.220 — 00:47:52.220 · Speaker 1

Thank you Georgie.