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Speaker 1

We are so delighted to welcome you to this conversation with Rob Reynolds, artist extraordinaire, all the way from Los Angeles, California. He landed on Tuesday morning in Amsterdam and went immediately to the Reichs Museum. And without further ado, we're going to dive in to our conversation about art, historical dialog.

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Speaker 1

We have been in an art historical dialog as colleagues and friends since December 2009, and we've got an image of the origin story of the painting that brought us together. Rob made it and then we met. But Rob is an extraordinary person, an artist and a dear friend. And we're so honored on behalf of JPMorgan and the private bank and my team in the art collection.

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Speaker 1

And we're so grateful to you for coming. But that Rob was available and willing to fly across the world to come and be our special guest. And we have seven of Rob's paintings in our lounge downstairs where we welcome you. After this and throughout the day, there will be another panel at 4 p.m. my colleague Jason will be in dialog with our colleague Steve Hawkins and Chris and Gary and about Jakon and talking about the art market and trends.

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Speaker 1

And you will have had time to walk around the fair. So it's an interesting thing for contemporary artists to be in the context of what is arguably the best art fair, certainly in in Europe and possibly the world. And we're so honored to be here. Rob is an extraordinary person and artist, as I mentioned. And we're going to start with where it began for you growing up in Boston, where as a teenager, he won the Boston Globe newspaper.

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Speaker 1

Remember newspapers? Right. Rob won the Boston Globe Newspaper Award for a scholarship at the museum school, which was an extraordinary art school attached to the Fine Arts Museum. So, Rob, welcome, welcome. Thank you. The Boston native spent some time in Providence, Rhode Island, where you went to university at Brown, later did the Whitney program in New York. And you moved to LA, what, 25 years ago?

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Speaker 2

20 years.

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Speaker 1

Ago? 20. Yeah. Is that all? Yeah. And we've known each other for 15 or so. You've spent the majority of your professional career in LA, which is a very different place than Boston. So without further ado, Rob Reynolds is going to tell us about his encounter with Rembrandt.

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Speaker 2

First of all, thank you very much, Charlotte, and thank you, everyone for making a moment. I know there are beautiful things out there, and you probably want to go race around and see all of them. Thank you also to, Adam and Pablo and the whole team. You've been very gracious and good to me, and it's it is a long way to go, but it's it's a great treat to be here.

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Speaker 2

And, our friendship has been, it started when we when we, met when you were a kid. Goes in gallery, and I had work in a show there.

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Speaker 1

In Beverly Hills, in Beverly.

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Speaker 2

Hills in Los Angeles, and we bonded over our mutual love of artwork, and we found that we had studied with some of the same professors, and we were interested in a lot of the same stuff. And, it's very rare to find someone with Charlotte's intellectual acumen and her training and her, curatorial expertise in that end of the art world.

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Speaker 2

And, so we really hit it off. And, yes, I had the good fortune of, getting a little bit of recognition, as a young aspiring artist in, in what is known best of all as a hockey town, among others, among other things. And it has, you know, there is actually a very long intellectual tradition of, of art collecting and of, curation and the museum for me was it was, it was a it was a, it was Heaven honors for me as a kid.

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Speaker 2

And so, you know, if, if the topic writ large for our conversation is the, relationship between old masters and contemporary art practice, I would say, you know, it's always an idiosyncratic relationship. And it's something that began very early for me. The painting that you see on the screen there is Rembrandt's, only marine painting, known as the storm or crisis in this in the storm on the Sea of Galilee.

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Speaker 2

It's, from, an a section of Mark and it's in Luke. I'm not a religious person, per se, but I always sort of felt like it was an amazing allegory for the trials of life and for, the creative life, even, you know, ye of little faith being the question that a sleepy Jesus asks of his disciples who are freaking out as the ocean boils.

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Speaker 2

So as a kid, I saw it. I loved this painting for no particular reason. Other than, its greatness, probably. And it was a window into an entire world. A way of being a way. It's thinking about things for me that you know, led me right to Amsterdam the other day to see some of these works for the first time.

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Speaker 2

We had the great luxury of having some of these works in Boston. This being at the Gardner Museum.

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Speaker 1

And that was you saw it for the first time when you were a kid.

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Speaker 2

I when I was 16. Yeah. I mean, one of the great things, in addition to going and getting to, do life drawing and painting with actual real artists, or living, breathing artists. And I don't think authenticity is a thing. Was also being able to go to the museums and, you know, I was given a lifetime pass to the museum, and it was non-trivial, you know, back then, you know, ten bucks meant a lot to a 16 year old kid who.

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Speaker 2

And it was great to be able to jump in and to see art and to have my life changed by it.

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Speaker 1

So the museum school, the Boston Museum of Fine Arts, and of course, the Gardner Museum. Yeah. Where that painting was.

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Speaker 2

Yes.

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Speaker 1

And if I said before that it wasn't the Boston Museum of Fine Arts that was.

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Speaker 2

Wrong, was right next door, essentially. Right.

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Speaker 1

Those but it's significant that it was at the Gardner that you saw when you were 16, because after that the painting went away.

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Speaker 2

It was stolen by, some small town con men who really knew what they were looking at and going for. So for Rembrandt's and a Vermeer and a couple of other works of art were stolen and in an audacious robbery in 1990.

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Speaker 1

Never recovered.

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Speaker 2

Never recovered.

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Speaker 1

There's documentaries, there's books. It's still a mystery. But this is a photograph of where it was.

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Speaker 2

Right?

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Speaker 1

Right. Of the actual Gardner Museum.

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Speaker 2

Yes. And so now it is. Its frame from which it was cut is on display next to the. And fantastic. You're on a very rare, Zurbaran in an American collection. And, you know, it's just it's a magical place. And it was a place where art was displayed without much pomp and circumstance. You know, there was a Vermeer next to a radiator.

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Speaker 2

So there was this kind of this, evaporation of the aura of the preciousness of the object. And you could really.

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Speaker 1

But also a very singular vision of Madame Gardner. Yeah. So then we can talk a lot about collecting and the fact that old master paintings were being collected by American collectors. That's a whole other talk we could do another time. Yeah. We got to talk about your art. So the Vermeer.

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Speaker 2

Is is to get to see, woman reading a letter for the first time in person. It was Tuesday. On Tuesday for me. I'm a grown man. It took me a long time to get there, but it was, you know, to to be able to see the work and to see it in the context, for instance, of the golden age of Dutch painting and culture.

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Speaker 2

And to get to considered in the context of the decentralization of, of the of the social system of the enlightenment, to think that Spinoza and Rembrandt were lived around the corner from each other, to think about the culture that was created and how it was created, and to see it in context was such a great, special thing.

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Speaker 1

Right. And Vermeer's mother sold his paintings out of her bar. That was the beginning of the art market as we know it. We got to keep going. Yeah. So being inspired by works of art that you encounter in person, and that's what this is about, it's very important for us to be together in person. This is far superior to a zoom meeting.

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Speaker 1

Right. So thank you for showing up in person people. Works of art need to be experienced as much as possible in real life. This is a painting that inspires you and we're going to dive in soon to your work. Yeah, because we're talking about these art historical foundations. What we got, we got to get to it because, you know, okay, I'm up job.

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Speaker 2

You know, time is day.

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Speaker 1

There is this painting right now, which usually lives in Berlin, is on Fifth Avenue with the Metropolitan Museum of Art. And I went to the opening a month ago. You haven't been yet? I haven't got a. That's your next trip, right? So tell us about why Caspar David Friedrich inspired you as an artist and when you encountered this image, but probably in art history class and Brown.

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Speaker 1

Yeah.

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Speaker 2

And I think, you know, I think we all, encounter this image. It's it's almost ubiquitous in art history.

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Speaker 1

And on the covers of romantic novels. Right.

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Speaker 2

Or, you know, in on, Mary Shelley's Frankenstein on the second edition or whatever. And, and, I mean, it's sort of, to me, an object of certain fascination right now, I think, because it's the embodiment of the romantic ideal of the rock and figure, you know, we see the figure from the back, we see the person viewing the natural world.

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Speaker 2

And I think if we want to get a little bit philosophical about it, you know, there is that kind of notion of separation of the individual from the natural world. And what is the natural world? It is a world of limitless abundance and even terror, perhaps. And so it's a very and it's, you know, I think a concept, that still we still are clinging to, you know, this concept of, of and of a natural world with limitless abundance, though, I think that over the last 15 to 20 years, our lived experience is radically different.

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Speaker 2

And I think that we're now, in a condition of, change or radical transformation. And I think that, you know, in a sense, there is a kind of longing for that moment. I feel it myself. And I think that there's no accident that it's such a pervasive, image right now.

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Speaker 1

And it's an extraordinary exhibition. And we encourage you all to come and visit in New York City. It's up for a few months. And it's extraordinary to have the its works by Friedrich. Also a lot of works on paper that never see the light of day. And to see these artworks together. So exhibitions are really important because you see things in a new context.

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Speaker 1

So let's talk about your fascination with the American landscape and that idea of the American sublime and the American exceptionalism, such as it was when these paintings were being made in the 19th century.

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Speaker 2

Well, I think, you know, growing up in Massachusetts, near Walden Pond and near, you know, the living, breathing, remnants of, the New England Transcendentalism, which was a kind of American version of this romantic vision, was was very profound for me. And it serves deeply in my memory. And, you know, I felt very attached to these, ways of depicting and representing nature and kind of feeling it.

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Speaker 1

And church was the kind of major. And did you encounter this painting in real life, in your art historical journey?

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Speaker 2

No, I, I didn't encounter church until I saw a bunch of studies. And it's like, for instance, in the next image that he had made on the hide, an expedition.

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Speaker 1

I zoomed ahead.

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Speaker 2

Yes. Good.

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Speaker 1

We got to get to the. Yeah, we got to get to the icebergs.

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Speaker 2

There we are. And so, you know. And so then, you know, and there is there is a tradition as and you know, not I presume that that we we know this but there's a tradition of artists schlepping along with scientists and with people on voyages of discovery and conquest. So, for instance, church went along with, Haydn on the search for the Northwest Passage and then but thus was given access to this terra incognita of the Arctic.

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Speaker 2

And, of course, what's our relationship to the Arctic now? You know, we Greenland is very much in the news in America, for a lot of reasons. And perhaps chiefly among them, that 15% of the world's freshwater is frozen in its ice cap. And so our relationship and our awareness of this ecological relationship is changing.

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Speaker 1

And so Rob has himself done, that kind of voyaging with scientists. We'll get to in a minute, but a little bit more of your art historical inspiration and specifically this Hokusai. So European romanticism, 19th century American version of romanticism and landscape, but also Japanese art and specifically Hokusai. There is a painting in our lounge downstairs, one of six of Rob's mountain paintings in that is depicting Mount Fuji.

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Speaker 1

Yeah. And so this is for you, a kind of original touch point of inspiring the investigation of mountains as a subject. And you we talked yesterday about the flatness. And this is a print Rob's paintings, as you will see. And they're stunning in real life. You're going to see a lot of images from the studio and other series, but you are working from photographs.

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Speaker 1

You're clearly inspired by a lot of different visual information, and you're a big reader, you're a musician, you listen to music, so your inspirations are coming from a broad place, but there are specific artists and specific images that resonate with you. Where did you encounter this one first?

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Speaker 2

You know, we we know, Hokusai's 30 Views of Mount Fuji is his famous exquisite project. He's the man that love to paint too much. And he actually made, it's estimated, more than 700 views of Mount Fuji. It was his object of obsession, which.

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Speaker 1

Is on in the 19th century in the south of France, would take up in his own way with almost 90 trois. So you, as a contemporary artist, are being inspired by Japanese artists that the Impressionists and Post-impressionists were looking at when they were radical. You emerging artists.

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Speaker 2

And I mean, the fun thing about, you know, life in the time of search, and image search and image hyper abundance. And now in the moment of AI is that, you know, there's a kind of flattening and there's we have access to images that, you know, from, from all different places. And I again, I think I'm not saying that my approach is in any way the end all, be all.

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Speaker 2

But like that, each artist and each of us individually, we all have our own idiosyncratic relationship to art, historical images, and it is hard to kind of trust yourself and sort of have a sense of like what you like.

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Speaker 1

But also we have an overload of information. Yeah. Which is a whole other talk we can do another time. Yeah. Talk to us about why Warhol is an important touchpoint for you.

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Speaker 2

I mean, just everything about Warhol's body of work, his approach to, image production, his, relationship to photography and mechanical reproduction, popular culture, popular culture. I mean, he's just an absolutely colossal, towering figure and a brilliant conceptual.

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Speaker 1

Artist who has a very long history in LA because of the Ferris Gallery that showed his work in LA in 1963, was a 63.

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Speaker 2

62. I think he did, I think, I don't know, actually mean.

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Speaker 1

We'll have to Google that later.

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Speaker 2

Okay. You know, work.

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Speaker 1

But it talked to us about this painting in the paint by numbers and y as a touch point for you.

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Speaker 2

I, I sort of, you know, once you may see if you if you go to the lounge and see the paintings, they.

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Speaker 1

Will.

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Speaker 2

There are blank spaces. There's, there are spaces where the, the painting ground is exposed. And, you know, I think that Warhol came up with a brilliant device where the viewer is positioned in a way that the viewer actually has to kind of fill in the blanks. And I sort of like the idea of these appropriated mountain images having blank spaces and giving space to the viewer to imagine how to fill it in, and almost as a kind of invitation to the completion of the object or the completion of the painting not being fulfilled until the viewer actually sees it.

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Speaker 1

And you'll notice when you see Rob's paintings in the lounge, and as you'll see them in the talk, and we're going to keep moving. But Rob uses a lot of text and a lot of numbers, and it's not you're not like overtly riffing on this, but you're also very inspired by Ed Ruscha, and you do have that kind of literary and historical and research elements.

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Speaker 1

So there's a relationship between the image, the way that you find it, the way that you then hand painted. And we were down in the lounge earlier, and there's a lot of champagne that will flow all day. So you will go to the lounge and you will visit the fair.

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Speaker 2

But based on the paintings look better if you've had a couple of glasses of rain and in some way kind of squint a.

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Speaker 1

Little bit, one of our colleagues said, oh, I thought they were photographs. So you're an extremely gifted creator of illusionistic images, which has a long history that goes back to the Renaissance. So, Rob, not all contemporary artists are as steeped in art history as Rob, but all artists are in dialog with what came before them and also what's happening in our own time.

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Speaker 1

So this is a view of the mountain paintings, of which at least a couple, yeah, are in our lounge because I acquired them for the JP Morgan Chase art collection when I visited Rob at his studio. And you're going to get a little virtual visit. And that was September 9th of this past year. But I did my first studio visit in December of 2009.

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Speaker 1

And look at us now. Look at where we are.

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Speaker 2

We haven't had a bad day since.

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Speaker 1

So this isn't an exhibition. Yeah.

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Speaker 2

Yes. And then the next image as well. I mean, that's sort of the intention of the way that I wanted to display them, which as you'd done downstairs. So it's thinking about the surreality of minimalism and thinking about, you know, a relational kind of approach to the photographic image. I mean, they're not you're you're very nice.

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Speaker 2

You're very generous to say that, you know, nice things about my painting. I'm not, like, trained professional. They're not. They're not. I take you at your word.

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Speaker 1

Nice.

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Speaker 2

I take you at your work. Extraordinary. But thank you. But they're not photorealistic at all. And that's my intention. You know, it's made in relationship, in relation to photography, but it's. There's a lot of space in there and there's.

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Speaker 1

A lot of intervention of your mind and your hand. So they even though they look really realistic, there's a very rigorous conceptual approach and surreality is important. We talked about Hokusai. We talked about Suzanne, you know, Warhol. And there's this kind of investigation that you get. You get seized by images and ideas, but you don't do one thing.

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Speaker 1

Right. And we got we got to move along.

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Speaker 2

This is sort of a condition of modernity. Talking to our friend from the Van Gogh Museum last night, Van Gogh did the same thing. Yeah. You know, it's like I. And I believe it sort of replicates or it it it mirrors, the kind of machinations of mass production in the Industrial Revolution in a kind of funny way.

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Speaker 1

Glacial how we sometimes describe bureaucratic processes that we all have to encounter.

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Speaker 2

Or aloof friends.

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Speaker 1

Photo of Empire burning. This is from Rob's, marine disaster series, and this takes us back to that kind of original origin story of the Rembrandt painting that you saw as a teenager at the Gardner, which is now lost. So it's really important to think about artworks. And you're here in the context of this extraordinary fair that goes back to antiquity and up to the present day that artworks as physical objects.

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Speaker 1

Right. And there's a lot of other kinds of material at the fair, but the physical, even though we there's everybody's talking about AI and computers, it is so much more meaningful as a human being, as we are embodied to experience things in real life. This was the painting that brought Rob and I together. It was in a group show at the Gaussian Gallery, Beverly Hills, where I very briefly was a director, and that's another story for another time, which will require stronger beverages.

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Speaker 1

But I met Rob and it was in a show that was kind of a broad thematic thing that one of our colleagues there, did. And I was so taken by the painting itself, by it's a large scale painting. This painting was acquired by a private collector who is a former JP Morgan person. Sadly, it's not in a museum.

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Speaker 1

And it's. Tell us why you made a large painting called Photo of Empire Burning.

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Speaker 2

Well, it's the text comes directly from the book that I found the photograph in. And there's another one that was taken a couple of days later, an album in print. Is it there? No, no, I don't have it. And it says Photo of Empire is still burning. And there is something about these sort of an.

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Speaker 1

Empire was the name of the.

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Speaker 2

Ship with the name of the ship is actually very common name for ships. And, you know, I, I initially started making, these sort of quasi maritime paintings as an affront to minimalism and to good taste, and then realized that the the sort of secret history of maritime catastrophes was really very weird and very interesting.

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Speaker 1

And you did you went deep into that, made a brown tape. Wheeler Ravenhill is being from Boston and being from a place with a lot of sea activity. Do we have any like and salty stories of ancestors who were seafarers?

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Speaker 2

Yes, but I would never tell it. The next company. All right. But and I'm sure that there's some kind of profound connection to the place and maybe even to the lost object of desire, the Rembrandt painting. But they're also fun to paint and I might, you know, just sort of, hey, I'm just interested in the relationship between text and image and the kind of poetic, space that can open.

00:23:03:07 - 00:23:07:22

Speaker 1

So a black and white 19th century photograph that you saw in a book inspired this page.

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Speaker 2

Yes.

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Speaker 1

So that's very different than pulling images off the internet.

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Speaker 2

Yes. Well, I mean, it's in a way it's it's, slightly, old fashioned version of a similar kind of practice, but definitely a direct homage to Gerhard Richter and who, you know, whose investigation of, you know, representational painting with a capital P with pop art strategies is, you know, something that's very inspiring to me and to a generation of fine painters.

00:23:38:05 - 00:23:59:18

Speaker 1

So you have a broad array of art heroes, right? For sure. But also the literary, the scientific, the research. Like, you know, Robert and I did a project together. How many years after the kid goes in encounter was that? It was 2013. We did a show together. I was the guest curator. It took us six months to make all those paintings.

00:23:59:18 - 00:24:19:03

Speaker 1

It was, yeah, we did a show. So Rob and I developed this, you know, started off as a collegial professional relationship, were now clearly very good friends. And it's not just about the love fest, but the relationship business is what is so important in all of our lives, no matter what we do. You know, private banking is about relationships, and the art world is a lot about relationships.

00:24:19:05 - 00:24:52:21

Speaker 1

You have a relationship not just to the time in which you live, but the past is very active for you and you. You've got a very voracious and encyclopedic mind. I was asked by the naturalist Museum in Los Angeles in 2013 to be a guest curator. I was working independently at the time. My brief moment it goes in had passed, and I was asked to curate a show of a contemporary artist to celebrate the 100 years of the Natural History Museum and the LA aqueduct, Los Angeles, as it exists as a city and a major center.

00:24:52:21 - 00:25:14:10

Speaker 1

And it's, you know, not incidental that we can also and we will talk about the recent fires. But Los Angeles is only possible because of the importation of water. And so we did this show called Just Add Water. And I called Rob and I'm like, hey, Rob, do you feel like making ten original water paint colors about water in LA?

00:25:14:10 - 00:25:41:12

Speaker 1

And he had six months to make these ten paintings. And this is extraordinary exhibition. You can Google it. It's on their website somewhere. There's video of us, speaking of digital archives, and he made ten gigantic watercolors and then separately researched the names of the workers, the like hundreds of people who built the LA aqueduct discovered them. He knows more than like, PhDs and, you know, water conservation.

00:25:41:12 - 00:25:56:04

Speaker 1

And historians of Los Angeles and printed them on banners that hung from in between the pillars. It was in this beautiful 1913 rotunda, and we had to do this show in six months. But that, that, that really like we were right or die at that.

00:25:56:05 - 00:26:00:06

Speaker 2

Is it true that I was selected because Ed Ruscha said, no, I didn't.

00:26:00:06 - 00:26:02:08

Speaker 1

Even call it was I called you.

00:26:02:10 - 00:26:25:03

Speaker 2

Okay? I was blessed to do it. And definitely was it for me. Los Angeles is a special site because it's a built environment. And, you know, we've learned it in the cruelest way over the last 2 a.m., six weeks, two months. As you know, this approach to land use has kind of come back to haunt us.

00:26:25:05 - 00:26:52:07

Speaker 2

Or as a friend said, we've been given an invoice for, you know, a lot of hard living. But that experience was absolutely transformative for me. And, you know, gave me a very, renewed sense of purpose. And I am eternally appreciative of, that project because good understanding landscape from the perspective of the built environment was a very powerful experience for me.

00:26:52:07 - 00:26:57:21

Speaker 2

And it was actually exactly then that I got my idea for the next project, which.

00:26:57:24 - 00:27:10:05

Speaker 1

Was we'll get to that in a second. It's important to note that one of those paintings went to the Natural History Museum. It was an image. And these these watercolors were gigantic. They were like, were they ten feet tall?

00:27:10:07 - 00:27:10:22

Speaker 2

It felt like.

00:27:11:00 - 00:27:14:10

Speaker 1

Big or like, I don't know, like big, life size, six.

00:27:14:10 - 00:27:15:06

Speaker 2

Feet by ten feet.

00:27:15:06 - 00:27:45:07

Speaker 1

Big. And the iconic image, and I, there's posters of it. Rob makes prints as well. Was a glass of water and it said, hey, there it is. Take it. And that's a quote from Mulholland. Right. Who built the aqueduct? Right. And there's references to the film Chinatown. And, you know, Rob went out and did, field research out in the desert, and you made that gorgeous, that gorgeous picture of the of the dry lake with the forms growing out of it.

00:27:45:09 - 00:28:07:03

Speaker 1

It was a very diverse body of work, but it was a completely hatched in his mind. He had six months to make these incredible watercolors. So the medium itself was relating. And then we had the names of all of those unknown workers. Many of them were immigrants, right? Or went to California for the opportunity. And he reclaimed the names of all these individuals.

00:28:07:08 - 00:28:17:13

Speaker 1

So we're leaving behind ships and water, and now we're going to, matters of environmental disaster or environmental.

00:28:17:15 - 00:28:23:02

Speaker 2

You know, disaster. Yes. But like, just as sort of like a new environmental condition.

00:28:23:02 - 00:28:25:20

Speaker 1

But you do have a disaster series.

00:28:25:22 - 00:28:32:13

Speaker 2

Well, it's, you know, and in homage to Andy Warhol's disaster series, you know, and those are the maritime disasters.

00:28:32:13 - 00:28:51:07

Speaker 1

So living in LA, Rob's wife is a filmmaker. He's friends with a lot of Hollywood folks, and they collect his work and they're real people. But it's an industry town. And he was driving, as one does in Los Angeles, to meet me. And the then director of the Natural History Museum of Los Angeles County, and was stuck in traffic.

00:28:51:07 - 00:29:00:02

Speaker 1

How novel and was listening to the radio as one does. Casey RW it's a great station. You can find it online. And the lead story was.

00:29:00:04 - 00:29:45:13

Speaker 2

Well, you know that, a glacier the size of one of our smallest states had carved from the Thwaites Glacier ecosystem in Antarctica, which for me at the time was one of those moments of, this changes everything. You know, we can read it. We can be told, you know, that things are happening. But for me, it was like a moment of, of shock and awareness and what I would call as an epistemic event, an event that is, so powerful that it changes the nature of thought.

00:29:45:19 - 00:29:50:20

Speaker 1

Okay. Epistemic. I have a PhD, and I had to ask Rob yesterday what that means.

00:29:50:22 - 00:30:02:19

Speaker 2

Is very simply, you know, like things and events that happen, a fire, an earthquake, seeing the Earth from space for the first time, for.

00:30:02:19 - 00:30:03:09

Speaker 1

Example.

00:30:03:15 - 00:30:14:06

Speaker 2

For instance, things that change the nature of thought sonically without changing the essence of the world itself, but that like, oh, it's different now.

00:30:14:07 - 00:30:37:19

Speaker 1

And for you as an artist who's a thinker and very attuned to the world, and you're a big consumer of news and information, he's driving to me with me and the director to talk about the show. This is the news story. And in your car you hear the story and your mind starts turning the wheel. So the minute an artist, same as with filmmakers, I'm sure the minute you finish the thing, you're on to the next thing.

00:30:38:00 - 00:30:50:02

Speaker 1

So you're driving to talk about the water show and you hear this news story, and in your mind you say to yourself, epistemic is that shit? I'm late. I think I'm an idiot.

00:30:50:02 - 00:31:07:20

Speaker 2

I said, I think I'm in a pain. I said, I hope the Doctor Paisano doesn't kick me off the roster for this show, because I really want to do it. No. And I but truly, Charlotte. And like, I think everyone has their own micro epistemic events all the time. I think the question is, what do we listen to?

00:31:07:20 - 00:31:37:03

Speaker 2

How do we let it inform our practices or the way we live in the world, and how might in it's funny way, through the contraption of all these things that we filter together, how how can it be manifest in the work that we make? And for me, it was a profound sense of both responsibility and connection and also a sense of like, you know, the geospatial and geopolitical boundaries between Los Angeles and Antarctica feeling relatively trivial at that moment.

00:31:37:05 - 00:31:53:22

Speaker 2

You know, if we think about the carbon that we produce, it isn't going anywhere. If the carbon dioxide we have to deal with it. And so the question is, how do we want to live in the world? And it's not a political question for me. I think it transcends it. And I think it's terrible that it has been politicized.

00:31:54:08 - 00:32:10:20

Speaker 2

Because I think it's so far beyond that. And I'm a part of it. We're all a part of it. And the question is, how do we how does it change and inform our practices? So I don't pretend that my work can have the same impact as the overview effect. But I think, you know, it was the Earthrise for me.

00:32:10:20 - 00:32:12:06

Speaker 2

It's a gesturing towards that.

00:32:12:06 - 00:32:35:05

Speaker 1

Okay. So, well, let's not get ahead of ourselves. The Earthrise is a painting that's part of a series. You've made a series of Earthrise paintings, and we'll get there in one second. But this slide is Rob's way of visualizing for you and us, what happened when you heard that news story out there? And you synthesize information in a way that in your head you got an image of LA.

00:32:35:07 - 00:32:49:03

Speaker 1

That's the arrow. Yeah. Right. Rhode Island and of Antarctica. Yeah. So this is Rob's way of crystallizing the way that his brain works for you. And he got this idea to start a new series of paintings right.

00:32:49:05 - 00:33:11:03

Speaker 2

And I eventually got to it during the pandemic when we couldn't go out and be around each other. But, you know, like, I mean, for me that that was another example of, like, you know, absolute radical essence of the interconnection of all of us and all beings, and, you know, as Spinoza.

00:33:11:05 - 00:33:12:06

Speaker 1

Rembrandt's neighbor.

00:33:12:06 - 00:33:28:15

Speaker 2

Rembrandt's neighbor wrote, but just about the kind of the, the, the, however one might want to parse it, the, the radically networked nature of of all of us and of all living things.

00:33:29:07 - 00:33:34:24

Speaker 1

Living on the earth. We got to keep going. We're on the earth. That's a photograph of the Earth from space.

00:33:34:24 - 00:34:10:23

Speaker 2

Yes. That William Anders is credited with having taken. He was an engineer on the Apollo eight mission. To go around the moon on Christmas Eve in 1968. He took the photograph with the Hasselblad from the cockpit. It's like, oh, that's cool. Click three frames went about his business, got back to Earth, and it was printed and it was disseminated and it went around the world instantly and it and it's cited by many environmentalists as the moment for them as a work of cultural production that changed everything.

00:34:11:00 - 00:34:36:12

Speaker 2

Like, oh, we our culture is built on, you know, us being here like Caspar David Friedrich the Wanderer, looking out, looking up to the space, looking up to the sky to try to understand the cosmos. And for the first time, we're seeing ourselves, from an artifact. And of course, the thing about it that I think is, is amazing and beautiful is that Anders gets the credit.

00:34:36:12 - 00:34:53:17

Speaker 2

He clicked the shutter, he framed it. But that was the collective effort of 400,000 people of of the will of people to go to space and to do it together. It is it is a collective epistemic moment.

00:34:53:19 - 00:35:04:17

Speaker 1

You mark. Okay. And now I know he said, no, I'm not. Okay. So Rob was two. I was three when that photograph was taken out. You discover that photograph on the cover of the Whole Earth Catalog? Yeah. The parents had.

00:35:04:18 - 00:35:10:09

Speaker 2

Yes, yes. And I had a poster of it on my wall. Okay. You can't find them anymore because they're printed on pulpy paper.

00:35:10:09 - 00:35:28:03

Speaker 1

Yeah, but we got to keep moving. Yeah, because we've got a painting of derived from this photograph and you're going to see more of them. But we got to get into the studio because we've only it's like we got like 12 minutes. Okay. Yeah. You're all going to want to visit Rob's studio in LA. It is in an old embroidery factory near MacArthur Park.

00:35:28:04 - 00:35:29:01

Speaker 2

It was an art school.

00:35:29:01 - 00:35:32:10

Speaker 1

It was an art school. The related to Chouinard. Right.

00:35:32:11 - 00:35:40:11

Speaker 2

It was a little bit before Chouinard, but like Robert Irwin and Marisol and a bunch of other artists learned life drawing and esthetics here.

00:35:40:11 - 00:35:45:01

Speaker 1

And you've been in that studio as long as I've known you. Yeah. So when did you get the studio?

00:35:45:14 - 00:35:58:10

Speaker 2

Fitting. Actually, not 18 years ago. And it's it's kind of like a Diego and Frida situation because there are these two buildings next to each other, and I'm in the Diego side, in the back, and it's a wonderful place.

00:35:58:10 - 00:36:07:00

Speaker 1

Although he has a much healthier relationship with his spouse than that. Right. So there's the charming bougainvillea and it's LA. And look at that sunlight. Look at that blue sky.

00:36:07:03 - 00:36:09:05

Speaker 2

Yeah, I'm a blue sky and golden sunshine.

00:36:09:05 - 00:36:28:16

Speaker 1

And you walk up, up, down the pathway, up the stairs to the right. And Rob has an enormous studio. This is one of the Earthrise series I acquired for the JP Morgan Chase art collection, and you're all invited to come and visit when we open the new building, the headquarters and I bought this painting that is very large.

00:36:28:16 - 00:36:52:20

Speaker 1

It is, I don't know how many feet, but it is going to hang in a dialog with our Alexander Calder mobile that David Rockefeller commissioned. I didn't commission it, but I specifically acquired the major Earthrise painting for the building in a very. It's on the 15th floor on the Park Avenue side. Come and visit. I'll walk you around this is one of the versions that you made a study.

00:36:52:21 - 00:36:53:23

Speaker 2

It's the largest.

00:36:53:23 - 00:36:57:23

Speaker 1

Version. It's the largest version. But this is not the finished one that I acquired for the collection.

00:36:57:24 - 00:36:59:20

Speaker 2

That is actually. Oh it is. Yeah. Yeah.

00:36:59:20 - 00:37:00:21

Speaker 1

I thought this was the study.

00:37:00:21 - 00:37:02:16

Speaker 2

It's it's in its crib, but. Yeah.

00:37:02:16 - 00:37:06:10

Speaker 1

But okay, so that I also I acquired that painting for JP Morgan I.

00:37:06:10 - 00:37:07:01

Speaker 2

Hope people.

00:37:07:01 - 00:37:26:09

Speaker 1

For all of you to enjoy. But it's going to have an amazing location. So you can see and Rob studio. I told him we want to share the kind of behind the scenes and where the magic happens. Remember that artists are the original entrepreneurs, right? Living in an era when you're not, you don't you're not Velasquez. Right? Working at court.

00:37:26:09 - 00:37:51:21

Speaker 1

You're not Rubens painting for all of Europe. Although you could be after this. You get up every morning and you create from scratch. Right. And you've got a lot of things cooking at the same time. And the studio is like the laboratory. Right? Then are you really all going to want to visit the studio after this? But we've got mountain paintings, iceberg paintings, sun paintings, ship disaster paintings, recent things, older things.

00:37:51:23 - 00:38:30:00

Speaker 1

You also make sculptures and photographs and installations. There's another Earthrise, and we have in our lounge downstairs a study, a small one. The big one is was too big, you know, I don't know, I'm going to have to go pick it up myself and drive a truck across the United States. It's giant. So studio images. Iceberg sculptures. I bought one for the collection from the first stories from marble that came from Colorado, from the Lincoln, from the Lincoln Memorial, the same marble that the Lincoln Memorial and Washington, DC was fabricated from.

00:38:30:05 - 00:38:38:10

Speaker 1

And this is from the iceberg series. So what was the relationship between Earthrise and Icebergs?

00:38:40:00 - 00:38:41:19

Speaker 2

I mean.

00:38:42:19 - 00:38:43:24

Speaker 1

Remaking them at the same time?

00:38:43:24 - 00:38:47:21

Speaker 2

Yeah, yeah. I mean, if you scroll forward a little bit, you can kind of see.

00:38:47:21 - 00:38:54:06

Speaker 1

Images of the sun. Very important because we need it for life. It also melts things. Right?

00:38:54:08 - 00:38:55:07

Speaker 2

Sure.

00:38:55:09 - 00:39:00:06

Speaker 1

It's a really fancy way of describing highly complex environmental.

00:39:00:06 - 00:39:24:19

Speaker 2

They're also circles and rectangles. But, Yeah. No, I think like this. Charlotte asked me to put together images of the studio to sort of just, offer a glimpse of process. And so you're looking essentially at like the the interior of a three dimensional sketchbook. Some of the work is finished, some of the work is in progress, but it's everything all at the same time.

00:39:24:19 - 00:39:28:05

Speaker 1

So we've got paintings of icebergs.

00:39:28:07 - 00:39:28:17

Speaker 2

Yeah.

00:39:28:17 - 00:39:32:11

Speaker 1

A series, a recent series you did of Trees in Central Park.

00:39:32:19 - 00:39:34:06

Speaker 2

And the United Nations.

00:39:34:06 - 00:39:58:24

Speaker 1

And the United Nations and I acquired, a couple of tree paintings. You. Although this is a more recent one of sycamores in, Central Park. Yes. Another ship disaster, which is an older work. And then what looks like an abstract painting of color bars. It looks like a screen from a television is, in fact a chart about climate change.

00:39:59:01 - 00:40:02:04

Speaker 1

You can see how important your library is.

00:40:02:08 - 00:40:04:14

Speaker 2

That's the cuckoo bird's nest, for sure.

00:40:04:14 - 00:40:10:15

Speaker 1

But it's like the inspiration. You also Rob plays a guitar. Are you still in the band actively?

00:40:10:17 - 00:40:12:22

Speaker 2

When we have time, which is never.

00:40:12:22 - 00:40:40:09

Speaker 1

And Rob, one of your projects, you did a big public art project in Colorado. In Denver? Yes. For the one hotel. And you also did a related image to that was the cover of the LCD Soundsystem. Yes. Album came out. So for music lovers. But just know that if for those of you who are very actively engaged in contemporary art, there is nothing like the studio visit, it's very important to go to museums and support your local cultural institutions.

00:40:40:14 - 00:40:51:13

Speaker 1

But for those of you interested in contemporary art, whether you're very deep into it or you're just getting started getting to know the artist, getting to go to the studio is one of the great privileges, really, of being in, but.

00:40:51:13 - 00:40:55:00

Speaker 2

Also, I think I'd like to just chime in Charlotte and say.

00:40:55:02 - 00:40:58:03

Speaker 1

Oh, oh yeah, right. You're in the special guest. No, no, I mean, as.

00:40:58:03 - 00:41:25:13

Speaker 2

Of this, but, but actually having dialog with, with people that are interested in the work is is essential and none of the work can exist. I mean, some artists, by disposition, can work in isolation and just go, go, go, go, go. And they don't want to be social. I'm a social person, I teach, I like conversation, I like to share ideas.

00:41:25:13 - 00:42:03:08

Speaker 2

My work. I think of it principally as about public engagement. And so for me, a studio visit is a welcomed experience and also to be placed in the care of a curator and a collection, and to have relationships and continuity relationships with I'll even just say patrons is is a blessing. I mean, think if Vermeer had not had Vermeer's relationships to three key collectors, that body of work never would have happened if there hadn't been that mercantile ecosystem with enough surplus labor to allow this person to go and explore this thing, it wouldn't have happened.

00:42:03:10 - 00:42:27:23

Speaker 2

And some artists have an antagonist. Antagonistic relationships to the market may not so much. And I think Andy Warhol is the model, really, of social engagement and trying lots of stuff. And some of it works, some of it doesn't. So that's an important thing, I think for. Yeah, to to know that your position as collectors and as participants are there, you're a crucial part of cultural production.

00:42:28:00 - 00:42:28:23

Speaker 2

From my perspective.

00:42:29:03 - 00:42:34:18

Speaker 1

The name of Rob's enterprises, cultural production. There's a productions.

00:42:34:20 - 00:42:36:16

Speaker 2

Production singular about, you know, and.

00:42:36:16 - 00:42:38:00

Speaker 1

Rob.

00:42:38:02 - 00:42:39:18

Speaker 2

It's a board you reference.

00:42:39:18 - 00:43:03:00

Speaker 1

But Rob is an entrepreneur and a business person is own. Right. I did acquire many of these works directly from the studio. He also works with Anthony Meyer Gallery, now in Mill Valley, California, who takes you to art fairs. And we've acquired from Tony as well. We have a lot of Rob's work in the collection. I started acquiring it soon after I was in the role and, we got to talk about the series The Icebergs.

00:43:03:06 - 00:43:08:01

Speaker 1

You went on an actual, like, government science ship? Yeah.

00:43:08:03 - 00:43:10:03

Speaker 2

You were first and last time.

00:43:10:05 - 00:43:14:23

Speaker 1

And tell us the name of the agency when you went to see the ill, you set eyes. Oh, well.

00:43:15:00 - 00:43:32:07

Speaker 2

I I've, I've been fortunate to go to Greenland twice. Once with support from the Berggruen Institute and Nicolas Berggruen and the other was, under the egis of the National Science Foundation oceans melting Greenland program. So I got to go with science is the second time.

00:43:32:09 - 00:43:33:14

Speaker 1

And that was 2019.

00:43:34:02 - 00:43:39:06

Speaker 2

2019 and 2023. So I've been back twice. I've been there twice.

00:43:39:06 - 00:43:48:21

Speaker 1

This is an artwork of Rob's that I acquired for the collection. It will be going to the new building. It is gorgeous. And that is his photographer for scale.

00:43:48:21 - 00:43:50:20

Speaker 2

It was a little bit of a Hemingway vibe and I thought.

00:43:51:00 - 00:43:53:15

Speaker 1

Yeah, he does. Very old man in the sea.

00:43:53:17 - 00:43:59:18

Speaker 2

These are his maritime. He's an adventurer. He's. He's climbed Mount McKinley.

00:43:59:20 - 00:44:00:08

Speaker 1

And formerly.

00:44:00:09 - 00:44:01:05

Speaker 2

Known as Denali.

00:44:01:10 - 00:44:06:24

Speaker 1

Rob pulled this image off the internet on July 22nd, 20. No, I took that picture. You took that picture?

00:44:06:24 - 00:44:07:12

Speaker 2

Yeah.

00:44:07:14 - 00:44:22:02

Speaker 1

All right, I stand corrected, but I want to we want to talk about why the date and the time. So in the paintings downstairs, they're pulled off the internet. And this. You took the photograph? Yeah. On July 22nd, 2023 at 1:42 a.m.. And, I mean, it was still quite sunny.

00:44:22:03 - 00:44:34:12

Speaker 2

When it's where when the sun doesn't set. And I had taken a photograph of, and another iceberg in exactly the same spot five years earlier or four years earlier.

00:44:34:15 - 00:44:36:10

Speaker 1

This is a current work in the studio.

00:44:36:10 - 00:44:36:24

Speaker 2

That I'm still.

00:44:36:24 - 00:44:37:09

Speaker 1

Working.

00:44:37:09 - 00:44:41:19

Speaker 2

On. Yeah, let's just finish. It's not going to have text. It sort of doesn't need it. So the color is really weird on that.

00:44:41:19 - 00:44:48:06

Speaker 1

But yeah, you have to see them in person. But we do got to zip along because we need a few minutes for questions. Yeah. You got wave two coming.

00:44:48:12 - 00:44:49:07

Speaker 2

We can, we can.

00:44:49:10 - 00:45:04:15

Speaker 1

And we can talk more. Rob is here. He's here all day. You know, the painting on the right, he showed me yesterday and I said, okay, well, what is this? And the text is an eye prompt that you gave to make.

00:45:04:17 - 00:45:22:06

Speaker 2

A song about a sycamore forest in a cold winter day in the style of Mary Oliver was a wonderful poet, only took a few tries for ChatGPT to make an incredibly good poem. So to change two words.

00:45:22:06 - 00:45:45:20

Speaker 1

So Rob is making these paintings by hand, but you can see the way in which technology and our the current moment is infused, as well as this deep art, historical, you know, dialog that you're in. And I saw this painting on the right. I already acquired one of the sycamores for, again, the new headquarters, because it's got extraordinary views of 360 degrees of Manhattan and off into the distance.

00:45:45:22 - 00:46:01:22

Speaker 1

And the view of Central Park is extraordinary. You really want to going to want to come. I'm inviting you all and I said, okay, how big is it? And I'd like to see that and do a virtual studio visit so I can acquire another one. Blessing. Thank you. You got a lot of wells to fill. So another sycamore.

00:46:01:24 - 00:46:17:04

Speaker 2

Here's the sort of like it's pretty old fashioned, but it actually goes directly back to Utrecht and Leiden and Amsterdam in the in the next one. Charlie. Oh, that's my palette. And I use, you know, old Holland paint. So in a funny way, it's like your.

00:46:17:04 - 00:46:18:21

Speaker 1

Paints come from the Netherlands.

00:46:18:21 - 00:46:46:12

Speaker 2

Yeah. A lot of the, the best ones do that. A lot of this. Wunderbar. The funny thing is like a lot of the whatever our sense of the procession of technologies is, a lot of it was developed here and you know, we're it's and it's still going and I think in a, in a moment of image hyper abundance and, and you know, I am and whatever I think paintings are actually becoming even more interesting to me.

00:46:46:14 - 00:47:07:24

Speaker 1

It's why real life is such an important experience. So Magnolia grand offer I said I bought that for the collection. He said, no, this is a new one. So he works in series. This is an exhibition that you have on view right now at the Sun Valley is a terrible picture. But see of art. And you also made a video about the Elizabeth, Iceberg and Rutland.

00:47:07:24 - 00:47:14:06

Speaker 1

And we also have the video in our collection, but we got a zip because we want to give people a chance to.

00:47:14:08 - 00:47:18:18

Speaker 2

Read and to show one image of the iceberg sculpture that was in the hammer exhibition.

00:47:18:18 - 00:47:25:17

Speaker 1

You just had an exhibition. So this is a smaller version in the studio. And then this is and is this the video.

00:47:25:17 - 00:47:26:01

Speaker 2

Thing or.

00:47:26:01 - 00:47:45:12

Speaker 1

One more and then this. Okay. So this is a sculpture that was in an exhibition at the Hammer Museum that was specifically about climate matters for the Pacific Standard Time citywide exhibition, of which the hammer was won and this closed. The show closed two days before the fire started in January.

00:47:45:17 - 00:47:46:23

Speaker 2

The show is called breeze.

00:47:47:00 - 00:47:48:13

Speaker 1

And the show is called breathe.

00:47:48:15 - 00:47:49:21

Speaker 2

So you can.

00:47:49:23 - 00:48:13:14

Speaker 1

If so, this is a video and remix as I mentioned, paintings, photographs, installations, sculpture and the video is a reminder that for 3D objects they need to be experienced in person. They need to be walked around. We do not acquire a lot of sculpture for the corporate collection because corporate environments are not ideal in terms of people bumping in and knocking things over and vacuum cleaners.

00:48:13:14 - 00:48:15:15

Speaker 2

But you have the Jeff Koons sculptures.

00:48:15:15 - 00:48:41:07

Speaker 1

Yeah, but it's little it's a little. So I have a small version of this. And he also did an AR thing outside the museum that people could do a QR code. And he had an image of the sort of writ large, gigantic iceberg floating over the Hammer Museum, which is in the Occidental Petroleum building. Incidentally, so another story for another time.

00:48:41:09 - 00:48:42:17

Speaker 2

Earth surfer. Other time. Yeah.

00:48:42:17 - 00:48:43:14

Speaker 1

Or icebergs.

00:48:43:14 - 00:49:01:18

Speaker 2

More ships. Well, that's how we we made the images of the icebergs. And to me, it goes directly back again to, here in the 16th and 17th century, because it's essentially a kind of high tech version of a camera obscura or like an MRI for 3D objects.

00:49:01:18 - 00:49:30:10

Speaker 1

So technology, right in Rembrandt's day, you know, the printing press was fairly recent and the operate and optics and the camera obscura. So there's always been technology, but you think about things in a very scientific way, but also a very philosophical way. And you've got this relationship to the sublime nature and more studio images of his super cool, I robot drawings.

00:49:30:12 - 00:49:46:12

Speaker 2

Yeah. Yes. I make them, I call them La sun drawings. And basically our building is all solar and we capture the sun and stick it in batteries and then I'm using a laser to make these drawings that are a little bit like engravings.

00:49:46:14 - 00:49:48:19

Speaker 1

But which also relates back to our friend Rembrandt.

00:49:48:19 - 00:49:58:22

Speaker 2

Yeah. Ultimately, you know, you're very generous to say all those nice things, but it's, it's a mishmash.

00:49:59:01 - 00:50:12:17

Speaker 1

That's an image of the AI iceberg floating over the hammer right on the left. Yeah, right. So you can see how much research, how much time we made it through. We have time for questions.

00:50:12:19 - 00:50:14:10

Speaker 2

We've talked an awful lot. We probably.

00:50:14:10 - 00:50:16:14

Speaker 1

Answered. There is seriously no questions.

00:50:16:20 - 00:50:41:00

Speaker 2

I have a question. What is it for the for the iceberg sculptures? Are you are you manipulating? Is that marble or how are they being carved? I use, a seven axis milling machine. Much of the technology was developed by a company that's based in Carrara. And there's.

00:50:41:00 - 00:50:41:13

Speaker 1

Italy.

00:50:41:14 - 00:51:20:18

Speaker 2

In Italy. And, I worked with a super smart guy in Long Island, and, I've been sort of gathering remnants and boulders of nice marble from Carrara and from a, a quarry in Colorado. The you all mine in Colorado, where the tomb of the unknowns and the Lincoln Memorial, marble came from. And then we use, a number of different programs to take data sets that scientists have captured, and I turn them into 3D models, and then I can make them in all different kinds of ways.

00:51:20:20 - 00:51:44:23

Speaker 2

So, but mostly, you know, as technologically rooted, as the practice is now, it's sort of the toolkit I look at. The work is really about a feeling and about feelings of different sorts. It's more from here than from here, ultimately. So hopefully it's not just data visualization, it's about transformation.

00:51:45:00 - 00:52:04:03

Speaker 1

But it's also about your amazing mind. You're very generous to say I am, but I'm a highly trained professional. Other questions from and you can interact informally as the day goes on. And we do want you to experience the fair. Come and visit us in the JP Morgan lounge, which is as you go into the entrance, these are the directions.

00:52:04:03 - 00:52:33:03

Speaker 1

Turn left at the flowers, turn left again and you'll see the restaurant, our lounges, right next door to the restaurant. As I mentioned, we have six of Rob's mountain paintings. We have one of the many Earthrise. I read about the Earthrise here to Maastricht and is just extraordinary to have you with us and to have your artworks. And again, my thanks to my colleagues in the private bank, to my team, to the events team, the marketing team, and especially to all of you for coming here to be with us.

00:52:33:03 - 00:52:55:14

Speaker 1

And we look forward to being in dialog with you and hearing about what inspires you at the fair. And it's okay if you're not interested in contemporary art. Or maybe you're here to look at antiquities or rare books or fine jewels or watches. Apparently JP morgan's watch is on view and we're not here selling anything. I mean, we are giving you a platform and we are celebrating you.

00:52:55:20 - 00:53:15:01

Speaker 1

But we're agnostic, right? We share what we do with you. Rob is one of many living artists in the collection, and you're extremely good company. But in the new building, Rob's Earthrise will be in a direct visual and physical dialog with the Calder that Rockefeller commissioned in 1959.

00:53:15:03 - 00:53:15:24

Speaker 2

I'm so pleased to.

00:53:15:24 - 00:53:26:16

Speaker 1

So you're in excellent company. And, you know, it was our great honor to be the stewards of that legacy. Thank you. So thanks for having it. Lives and breathes, Rob long these very long.

00:53:26:16 - 00:53:27:17

Speaker 2

May we all live and breathe.

00:53:27:17 - 00:53:30:20

Speaker 1

Want to me okay. We're doing the nod up here.

00:53:30:22 - 00:53:34:12

Speaker 2

Thank you everyone. For.

00:00:07:03 - 00:00:24:22

Speaker 1

While we have all these wonderful guests here, want to talk about collecting strategies, but first one to talk about their view of the current state of the art market. I'd say within the last 6 to 12 months.

00:00:24:24 - 00:00:31:24

Speaker 1

What would your take on the art market be? So we can kind of set the stage before we talk about some strategies.

00:00:32:01 - 00:00:51:13

Speaker 2

Do you want to take it or you can look at Thursday. Well wow. I think the in the last couple of years have been, kind of an interesting ride in that if you, if you look at the, the just the very flat numbers of what's been happening say, oh, that, you know, last year was not a good year, right.

00:00:51:13 - 00:01:19:24

Speaker 2

Because the, the overall auction, the overall market was down a certain percentage, I think it was like 25%. And if we want to talk more specifically about old Masters, the overall total that was turned over was also down. But if you dig in a little bit deeper and look at why and what was selling and how it was selling, you'll you can see that it actually is pretty healthy.

00:01:20:04 - 00:01:39:11

Speaker 2

So the, the number of artworks that went through and I'm just talking about like the me, the two major markets, which are London and New York, and the two biggest auction houses, Christie's and otherwise, if you look at that turnover, I think the total amount of turnover was the same or very similar to the year before.

00:01:39:13 - 00:01:49:21

Speaker 2

I think what happened was that, there were less kind of like blockbuster pieces that came onto the market at auction. And so therefore the numbers are.

00:01:49:21 - 00:01:50:24

Speaker 1

Lower and wide.

00:01:51:00 - 00:01:52:00

Speaker 2

And health as good.

00:01:52:00 - 00:02:17:22

Speaker 1

As as Charlotte said, though, there are different markets, if you drill down even within categories. And you kind of already spoke to that like surrealism has been very high hot, you know, totally up even, you know, exceeding numbers, whereas other categories maybe weren't from previous years. But is there is there a reason why you think some blockbuster paintings and old masters weren't coming to market?

00:02:17:22 - 00:02:25:05

Speaker 1

Are people? Were they holding back because of uncertainty, or is it just a limited, more limited supply? In general.

00:02:25:07 - 00:02:43:17

Speaker 2

There is a limited supply, a bit more, but and auctions is not an dealers. It's not everything, you see, because there's a lot of moments that there are. I'm sure you're familiar with private sales. Lots of things you don't see because it's very discreet. There's a way of selling, above or below the market. So you you don't see everything.

00:02:43:17 - 00:03:03:09

Speaker 2

But the market was pretty healthy. But lots of pieces didn't even pass for auction. Or they go, you know, so as being less I mean, they're less like, really special paintings, but it's still there and it's still discoveries being made, but it's a different sort of market. And last year didn't have so many blockbusters as a collection sales.

00:03:03:11 - 00:03:21:03

Speaker 2

And I think this year will be different. There's already, some announcement, the end of the sales earlier this year in New York were pretty healthy, actually. The sales in New York of Christie's and Sotheby's, early February were pretty good. Every even with limited supply, they were held out there were steady.

00:03:21:05 - 00:03:34:12

Speaker 1

It was really an interesting time to watch in 2020, when we were all in this uncertain moment with when the pandemic was just really taking hold and we were in lockdown, literally, we were here. You were here.

00:03:34:13 - 00:03:36:10

Speaker 2

Okay. Right? Yeah, it's in a giant petri.

00:03:36:15 - 00:03:59:07

Speaker 1

And there was it. There was a very short moment where I know Charlotte and I were contact did, about from clients and bankers, and there was like a three week period where there were big discounts being offered to people privately because, no, wait, there was so much uncertainty in every aspect of life, that there was a real quick discount moment.

00:03:59:12 - 00:04:27:21

Speaker 1

But then as the auction houses and I'm sure dealers got used to pivoting to something more digital, then the market really ticked up and to 2002 was going bonkers in a good way. People were at home, they were more comfortable bidding online at the auction. Houses got their digital platforms together very quickly. People at home were buying luxury items, you know, watches, wine, collectibles.

00:04:27:23 - 00:04:38:11

Speaker 1

Like I said, that seemed to have peaked in to 2022, maybe 23. And now it seems to just be softened and maybe just more discerning.

00:04:38:13 - 00:04:56:14

Speaker 2

Yeah. And people were even buy things which they hadn't seen, which was a big change right until not because I remember I was at Sotheby's then we had the sale at end of March, or this was, Covid time 2020, and it was a sale from Rafa Valles, who was actually exhibiting here as a dealer, and he had a sale and it went.

00:04:56:20 - 00:05:16:13

Speaker 2

But, I mean, it was great results because everybody was behind the screen, I guess nobody. But before people always said, you have to see something. And this was even proven because there's actually painting in that sale, which people couldn't even see because it was somewhere in a warehouse. And it made it made 800,000 pounds without even having been seen.

00:05:16:13 - 00:05:31:06

Speaker 2

And so it was a pivotal moment also from, you know, people were sort of changing. They were like, you know, we look at the screen, we can see more as are there, but images, how big a painting was or something else. Right. And there were lots of acquisitions at that time. Yes.

00:05:31:08 - 00:05:50:21

Speaker 1

Well, thank you for that. For that kind of basis. And Steven, you know, tell us a little bit more about you are the head of specialty lending for the International private Bank. Does the market and how it fluctuates have anything to do with your business or let the let us know about that? So, so so it does to some extent.

00:05:50:21 - 00:06:19:07

Speaker 1

I mean our our focus is really on working with our clients to achieve their long term wealth objectives. Right. So so a lot of what we're doing is, is trying to make sure that they're situated to, to navigate these sorts of market fluctuations and not be so impacted by the short term movements. And a big part of that is making sure that you have a, you know, a liquidity strategy in place and understanding where you can access liquidity from your broader balance sheet, should you need to do so.

00:06:19:13 - 00:06:38:21

Speaker 1

So I think when, when, when we're looking at, the, the current lending market for these types of assets, whether it be art or yachts or, you know, any of the specialty assets, I think we continue to see that of being a a growing area of interest for our clients and, and something that, we're very much focused on, on delivering.

00:06:39:01 - 00:07:02:05

Speaker 1

But I don't think it's so much impacted by, you know, short term or some of the more immediate things that are happening. It's it's more about making sure you have a long term strategy in place and, and have access to that liquidity. Okay. And banking and, Christine, are you seeing any trends, specific trends or opportunities in whether it's old master or any of the categories?

00:07:02:05 - 00:07:05:09

Speaker 1

Because I know you, you both work across categories, and.

00:07:05:11 - 00:07:36:07

Speaker 2

I would say the last few years when unhappily so there's been a real development in the interest of, female painters, which has really taken off. And so there has there hasn't been a lot of research done. And, there just been some, you know, beautiful examples of, of women painters that have hit the market. I mean, most people know Artemisia Gentileschi or, I mean, she's probably the Lavinia Fontana.

00:07:36:13 - 00:07:48:14

Speaker 2

Those are kind of the, the Italian, the most famous Italian ones for old masters. But, I mean, I think that happened also, as you said, also in surrealism with, you know, Leonora Carrington.

00:07:48:16 - 00:07:51:24

Speaker 1

Andrea Price's. Yeah, but. Right. But for for female.

00:07:52:03 - 00:07:56:10

Speaker 2

It was double like surrealism and female Leonor Fini. All.

00:07:56:13 - 00:07:57:07

Speaker 1

Right.

00:07:57:09 - 00:08:21:12

Speaker 2

Yeah. But we've seen those prices in really go tenfold. I mean, you have an auction estimate based on, you know, when you look at what the market has done before, the estimates are based on that. Right? And then they go to market and they, you know, will make ten times the estimate. So, that's been really fascinating and and heartening to see for sure.

00:08:21:18 - 00:08:43:14

Speaker 1

And are you and you I know we've talked about this, but maybe you can explain a little bit more your experience with collectors that were focusing on one area being more open. So cross collecting now where you were saying you're helping some people with design, even if they're with old master or contemporary, and maybe placing an old master work with with a contemporary collector?

00:08:43:16 - 00:09:04:14

Speaker 2

Yeah, we were just we just bumped into a friend of ours, on the, in the fair and we were talking about how people are not siloed anymore. Know. So you you have a friend or a collector or both or and that's, that's really interested in one thing. But it's now you can introduce them to other things.

00:09:04:14 - 00:09:35:22

Speaker 2

And I think before, like the traditional collector, when we first started in the market, was a very kind of intense and, singly focused collector. They would collect drawings, French drawings, 18th century from, you know, Fragonard and Boucher and long career. And they would develop these collections that were very specific and, and now people's tastes and perhaps it's just a reflection of the fact that there's so much more information on the internet.

00:09:35:22 - 00:09:57:08

Speaker 2

It's readily available. So you see things you're like, oh, that's amazing. That's fascinating. What's that? And it's easier to kind of dig into things and learn about things. And so yeah, so people are more interested in kind of putting together collections that are, have pieces of, of paintings and sculpture and design and rugs.

00:09:57:08 - 00:09:58:15

Speaker 1

And, or layered.

00:09:58:17 - 00:10:23:20

Speaker 2

Or very layers. Yes. Or I have a collector who actually has different houses, like so many of you also probably have. And they has, you know, for one apartment how you ones design and some really nice stylized and Dutch style eyes that your Flemish still lives. So that's really and it really works well. So it's 20th century design even also going into a little on some other like lovely pieces together with Dutch still lives and that's one house.

00:10:23:20 - 00:10:44:09

Speaker 2

So you know, there's plenty of room for other. Yes. Other houses is a different mix. Again, it's nice and people get inspired. Maybe you should do as well. Sometimes if you look at now on the ferry, you will see quite a few dealers who will offer a mix. These are in the areas which are the red. If you look on your plan, it's like red and describe it's the larger part.

00:10:44:11 - 00:11:06:23

Speaker 2

The lower part, it's the collector, the dealers who have works of art, paintings, furniture and actually dynamics. You see, even dealers mixing who used to only have old master drawings also now mix. Keith Haring, another thing, it's it's nice. It's, it gives you, you know, it's it switches your mind just switches your, your your view. It's nice.

00:11:06:23 - 00:11:25:10

Speaker 2

It's it's as I'm sure you all know, but it's it's nice to look at those stands. There's some very good examples now. And for us as dealers it's we get we have the opportunity to learn about more things right. Like our our life, our world is, is, you know, the art worlds and art history. You can never know everything.

00:11:25:10 - 00:11:46:23

Speaker 2

So everything is a is an is an opportunity to learn more. And and I think that's one of the best things about our job is that we definitely don't know everything. So it's fascinating to go out. And if you have a client that's saying, okay, well now I'm really interested in in Hellenistic art and you're like, oh wow, that's okay.

00:11:46:23 - 00:11:53:11

Speaker 2

Well, let's go look. Right. So, I think that's one of the things that really keeps us really engaged.

00:11:53:13 - 00:12:19:03

Speaker 1

And I also think for collectors, that don't have that are kind of open to, a category looking at categories that aren't on fire right now, like, because there's some great opportunities, I think, in 19th century paintings and other things like that. I know that the younger generation of collectors are very interested in contemporary art and collectibles and luxury items.

00:12:19:05 - 00:12:24:03

Speaker 1

What about old master paintings and drawings? Do you see them entering that market?

00:12:24:05 - 00:12:42:03

Speaker 2

Yes, as well. And actually Tefaf is actually doing also their best of, try to engage them. So they have found something. They haven't done it. I think here in Maastricht, but they've done it a taste of New York. They sort of had an insider date. So you got like a special QR code through the dealer and nobody else knows about it.

00:12:42:03 - 00:13:02:12

Speaker 2

And you can have your insider guide. So trying for the young people to engage them. But and they have some programs and also I think all the dealers, you know, have try and engage the younger crowd also via Instagram and even TikTok. I think trying to give them, you know, any information because it's about, you know, and making them and making it a sighting.

00:13:02:17 - 00:13:04:15

Speaker 1

Oh yeah. Yeah, yeah.

00:13:04:17 - 00:13:28:02

Speaker 2

An accessible right. Get that your drawings. When I was, I worked at a gallery called Carnegie when I first started out, and with the first exhibition that I put together, I wanted things that were, you know, of a certain price point, but also accessible to people. I didn't I didn't want it to be this, you know, this venerable, staid institution where people were scared to walk in.

00:13:28:02 - 00:13:54:05

Speaker 2

Lee dealers love to talk about their things, you know, because they're passionate about it. They're passionate about what they've bought and and how they've prepared to to share their information with you. So, it's a great opportunity while you're obviously you're, we're all here and, and and the dealers that are on that are exhibiting right now for the next ten days are thrilled to tell you about what what is down there.

00:13:54:05 - 00:14:06:15

Speaker 2

So it's, you know, it's there are there is on death. Right. So you consider us all young, right. This is a this is a yeah, a real young. So this is

00:14:06:17 - 00:14:22:17

Speaker 1

And and why this is my as I said in the beginning, this is my first visit to Maastricht and Tefaf very impressive. I know you, you both have been coming for many years. Why is this such an important fair, to you and and professionally.

00:14:22:19 - 00:14:49:18

Speaker 2

It's the most important fair for our, I mean, our area of master paintings. Even though that's now it has to have diminished a little bit. It's still it's for, they keep all the dealers, keep all their best things for tefaf. It's like the. And even now, even in the modern section, I think, and even for some of the other sections, people also to Chinese, you know, works of art, they keep their things for and they for tefaf and they even make a I don't know, you must have seen some of the stands are beautiful.

00:14:49:18 - 00:15:10:11

Speaker 2

They're actually. Oh, yeah. There's a sculptor to a good friend of ours, Stuart Lochhead. He's a like the main X is made. He has always special made booth. It's by Japanese architect. It's beautiful with like this latticework. Yeah. Wooden things. It's just it. And it's a fair, which is not only until Thursday and they make the most of it also have to exhibit things.

00:15:10:11 - 00:15:33:13

Speaker 2

And which is the gallery is a gallery floor. Yeah. It has the grotto has any. But yeah. With moss. With moss. And then the Tommaso Gallery which, which specializes in old master sculpture. They took they have a table on their booth. On their booth that has a floor from Hadrian's Villa. And so it's part of, of a, I think it's 17th century table.

00:15:33:18 - 00:15:38:20

Speaker 2

So they took the floor from Hadrian's Villa and they reproduced it. And then they put that on the floor.

00:15:38:20 - 00:15:46:14

Speaker 1

I know because I, I thought, there's no way this is tiled. Get this out. I put my foot over it. Yeah, it was mine or not, but it was very good.

00:15:46:20 - 00:16:10:11

Speaker 2

The dealers really. Put so much thought and so much effort into this, this show every year. And they work all year to to bring the best things here. Yeah. So for you know, for us and also it's a place where I think it's the, the vetting here is just such a high level. You know, it's two days of vetting.

00:16:10:11 - 00:16:22:04

Speaker 2

It's really serious. And and so when you go and you're walking around the floor looking at everything you have, a really great comfort level, looking at the things that you're looking at.

00:16:22:06 - 00:16:39:16

Speaker 1

And does that vetting, also encompass, issues such as restitution for anything made pre 1945, or is there more work a collector themselves or through an advisor should be aware of that. They should be doing more due diligence in that aspect.

00:16:39:18 - 00:16:57:04

Speaker 2

They are looking at. I mean, they are looking at the restitution part. And I think they always ask for any art loss register certificates. But still, I think it's always important, that you do your own research, but it's it's a main part. It's become a main part as well of the vetting. They always ask for the certificate.

00:16:57:06 - 00:16:57:11

Speaker 2

So.

00:16:57:15 - 00:16:59:22

Speaker 1

It's the art loss register open to anyone?

00:16:59:22 - 00:17:00:06

Speaker 2

Yes.

00:17:00:09 - 00:17:06:08

Speaker 1

Okay. So you can look for anything. You don't have to be working with a professional if you.

00:17:06:08 - 00:17:07:18

Speaker 2

Absolutely not. Nope.

00:17:07:20 - 00:17:30:05

Speaker 1

Okay. Interesting. Yeah. Well, we're talking about art. I think it's time we can look at some art. Both Borja and, Christine have have been working in the field for decades successfully. And they've made some really amazing discoveries. And we have five highlights, that they're going to talk to us about. Give us a little bit behind the scenes on kind of the finding and where these now live.

00:17:30:05 - 00:17:32:04

Speaker 1

If you're allowed to say,

00:17:32:06 - 00:17:51:20

Speaker 2

So this is very typical Old Masters subject. If you're, you know, where we are, old masters subjects are usually quite some can be quite gruesome, like this one, a massacre of innocence. Would you would say this is not so commercial, but this painting was actually until recently, until the Salvator Mundi, which you probably all know. We talked about that last.

00:17:51:21 - 00:18:12:16

Speaker 2

Yeah. I let Robert Simon, is was the most expensive old master painting, selling at auction. It sold for 50 million pounds in 2002. And this is a story that somebody came in to the Amsterdam office where the painting, which was not worth a much more. We all always very nice for everyone. So I had it. We said, I'm sorry is not very good.

00:18:12:18 - 00:18:29:14

Speaker 2

And then he said, oh, by the way, I have a photograph of this painting. And then the name, as you can see, is Rubens big name was lost at that time. He didn't know it was Rubens. It was hanging in, a convent in Austria. It belonged to his aunt, who was in, in, in the old Everly home.

00:18:29:16 - 00:18:48:09

Speaker 2

And they had no clue. So we were like, that's interesting. We should probably book a flight to Austria. And one of my colleagues from London, George Gordon, went to see it, and all the rest are history almost. It was like they had no, no idea. So sometimes what happens with old masters is that the name gets lost.

00:18:48:09 - 00:19:13:13

Speaker 2

So there is inventories being made. You know, they're transcribed. And then all of a sudden I think it was lost. And since the 18th century. So it's one of those things that and actually, I actually I know that a dealer I'm not going to say to name a Dutch dealer was offered this painting, had also seen the photograph and actually had thanked I seen a letter because I couldn't believe it.

00:19:13:15 - 00:19:34:20

Speaker 2

He said, thank you very much. The subject is too awful for me to sell, so. And I think we all make mistakes. I made classics, yeah. If he didn't even, you know, got a ticket to to see this painting because we didn't see immediately that it was Rubens where we did it. There's no verse. It didn't sell.

00:19:34:22 - 00:20:03:03

Speaker 2

And it was just cleaned and yeah, it wasn't, but it's a big painting. If you look at the size, it's 150 by almost two meters wide. So it's not, you know, and that's wider. And it was dirty. And so sometimes this is happens. Oh yeah. Yeah I was a curator too. Getty. At the time that this picture came up and my then boss got super diabetic, who is has made some very major acquisitions is third now was the under Vitter on this.

00:20:03:05 - 00:20:18:22

Speaker 2

Yeah. Because a museum can never compete. Even a museum like the Getty that had the wherewithal to have, you know, many tens of billions of dollars of approval. But they were capped and they were beaten by one hammer bid by Laura Thompson. Yeah.

00:20:18:24 - 00:20:19:19

Speaker 1

Canadian.

00:20:19:19 - 00:20:36:02

Speaker 2

Fame. And that's why is it the ego and not the Getty? Right. And then when I went to the Saint Louis Art Museum, I graduated from the Getty and I got a bigger job in Saint Louis, and I was going after a little Caspar David Friedrich, and I was authorized up to $1 million. And that was, what, savvy 6 million this is?

00:20:36:02 - 00:20:58:01

Speaker 2

Yeah, 50 million pounds. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it was awful as up to 75 million. So what is an institution? Right. There's a committee and you get approved. You can't spend one money more for a motivated private collector can always outdoors use. Yeah. So it depends on how modest your you are. But suppose that you bid it option not to be very disciplined about how much you do to.

00:20:58:03 - 00:20:59:02

Speaker 2

All right. Another one.

00:20:59:07 - 00:21:00:24

Speaker 1

Yeah, but I did buy one.

00:21:00:24 - 00:21:30:05

Speaker 2

Hammer $1 million increments I had after the Getty and I loved it. It was amazing. That's where we met Scott Shaper. I ever, I went to Saint Louis and I tried to buy. I was there for one month, and this very beautiful, small Caspar David Friedrich actually were with us this morning. Rob and I talking about the Friedrich Show, at the Getty and adding that, that and that, that picture that I tried to buy for the Saint Louis Art Museum for $1 million, which was a lot.

00:21:30:06 - 00:21:54:02

Speaker 2

I'd been in my job for like two weeks. Right. And that's a lot more than what we fund as Jake. Mortgages are collection, by the way. However, I was outbid. I won hammer one. I don't increment Lord Thomas, and that was good. It's only another museum if the under bidders only got credit right. This is this all have those all like are you holdings in this like that.

00:21:54:02 - 00:21:58:15

Speaker 2

Yeah I didn't buy or and it's the one you missed.

00:21:58:17 - 00:22:02:14

Speaker 1

And you can't forget that buyer's premium. It's not that last bid you have.

00:22:02:16 - 00:22:15:15

Speaker 2

Yeah, yeah, I know I should have said. And Jason worked in Sotheby's before he was with the corporate collection. So this is also a world that you know very well. But the other side. Right. I will close my parentheses.

00:22:15:15 - 00:22:16:06

Speaker 1

But no, the.

00:22:16:07 - 00:22:25:22

Speaker 2

Spirit inside one of Galveston's as well. Go. Thomas's okay. You're artist. Yeah. That's another one that you're mystical. Oh yeah. That was cool.

00:22:25:22 - 00:22:27:18

Speaker 1

So Kristen, this is one of my words.

00:22:27:24 - 00:22:56:10

Speaker 2

Yes it is. Okay, so this sculpture came to me. I, part of what I do is I also work, I'm hired to work with Bankruptcy Estates. And so, I'm responsible for basically maximizing the assets of the estate to go back to the creditors, and he knows who to call in something positive. Yeah. And so this was in a really large bankruptcy estate that I was working on.

00:22:56:10 - 00:23:15:21

Speaker 2

That took a very long time to work through. I'll never forget when I walked into the storage facility, and it was like that last scene in Raiders of the Lost Ark. If you've ever seen that movie, when they walk into government facility and they're like just thousands and thousands of crates of boxes, and as far as you could see.

00:23:15:23 - 00:23:42:09

Speaker 2

And that's how I felt. But in one of these crates was this sculpture, and it's beautiful. And so I was like, oh, gosh, I'm going to have to figure out what this is, because I didn't know and there was no real information that came with it. So, you know, there's in our world, you know, we are considered experts, but then then you can go back and you go even deeper and you get into subject experts.

00:23:42:09 - 00:24:11:19

Speaker 2

And so this is a 17th century, Florentine sculpture by an artist named Antonio Novelli. And, no one knew that. So, it was basically a discovery. And so I contacted an expert in Florence who writes, who is a specialist in, in Florentine art. So this comes from the Anglican Church, and it comes a little full circle for me because it comes from the Anglican Church in Florence.

00:24:11:21 - 00:24:33:23

Speaker 2

And there was a pamphlet that was put together in 1905 by a woman who descend from Dominic Nagy, who was the the one of the family of the gallery that I worked for in, in New York. So when I discovered that it was had like a collagen connection, I was like, oh, it's of course it's karma. It's coming back for me.

00:24:34:00 - 00:24:58:22

Speaker 2

So, so yeah, so it was in the Anglican church and it had been gifted. It had been originally in a villa outside of Florence called Villa Camerata, which had been owned by the Pucci family. And then somehow fashion. No, I know there's more than one. I know would have been really chic with a scarf. Yeah, exactly.

00:24:58:24 - 00:25:26:20

Speaker 2

So from the villa, it was bought by a British family, and then the British family gave it to the church. And then when the church remodeled, then it came out of the church. And that's how it came into the collection. And I had kind of basically got on to, like, public market. So, it was in this bankruptcy estate and, yeah, through lots of digging around and, and archival research.

00:25:27:01 - 00:25:28:14

Speaker 1

So it's on site. It's on site.

00:25:28:14 - 00:25:44:04

Speaker 2

Oh, it's on site. That's how I see sort of things. Yeah. And then the met on it, but the met bought it. So and now it's in the met and I went to visit it the other day. It's still there on view, right. Yes, yes it is. Well, what year did you sell it? In the oh eight.

00:25:44:06 - 00:26:03:00

Speaker 2

And eight years ago. Nine years ago? Something like Bravissimo. Grazia. Yeah, but this was an example of your mattresses. They which lot of things were over catalogs, so they were meant. They said there were kind of letters and things which weren't. And this was a dealer was actually ended up in prison. Yes. And there were things like this one which was under catalogs.

00:26:03:00 - 00:26:24:00

Speaker 2

So right in is you always have to look at things for what they are. You know, you see things have faced all you're like, oh it's a great, you know, you get names. Then you have to continually do your research and, and make sure, maybe, you know, you find new things. So anyway, he's a very hunky based.

00:26:24:02 - 00:26:36:20

Speaker 2

It's on clouds, and little kettle being eagle that Rob talks about. So like at all. And it's quite a good game. We should do one more. I'd like to watch a time.

00:26:36:22 - 00:26:39:00

Speaker 1

We have the go guy. Oh.

00:26:39:02 - 00:26:41:15

Speaker 2

Oh, shallot.

00:26:41:17 - 00:26:44:08

Speaker 1

So we're shifting category here.

00:26:44:10 - 00:27:17:06

Speaker 2

Yeah. So actually, I was not in charge. I know, so this also has a kind of a really fun story. It was bought from Google by a Norwegian collector and passed to when the when the original purchaser passed away, he left it to, his two children. The children in the 1950s. They actually didn't know they had this because this painting was behind another painting.

00:27:17:08 - 00:27:43:06

Speaker 2

So there are two go guys that were stuck together. And this Gogan was discovered, it was the canvas. It had been attached in the back. And then when they went in to do, restoration on the picture that they originally had, they found another one behind it, which is. Right. So, two for one, two for one, which is I can't even imagine that happening today.

00:27:43:08 - 00:28:04:03

Speaker 2

That would be a great fortune. But, so, yeah, and it was really funny because the back of it was painted silver, and, the grandson of Goga had come and said, this is an original work by my grandfather, Paul. Paul got. So that was all fun. It comes, it came, actually came to auction. And and this is kind of a case of.

00:28:04:05 - 00:28:04:24

Speaker 1

00:28:05:01 - 00:28:31:24

Speaker 2

Experts going back and forth. So it had been in the catalog raisonné, and then someone had written that they thought it was actually by Gaga's buddy and travel partner to Martinique, Charles Laval, who's a great artist, but not Guga. And this is a period of of go got before it was after Brittany and before he got to the more cases and and Tahiti and did all of his iconic work in Tahiti.

00:28:32:01 - 00:29:01:15

Speaker 2

But Tahiti in the more cases probably wouldn't have happened without this very important passage in Martinique. And so so, so yeah. So, so that's our origin story. Yeah. Exactly. This morning. But I had to arm breakfast to get her, but I had to re I had to reengage this, this expert and have him come because he had written these things without actually seeing the painting.

00:29:01:17 - 00:29:21:23

Speaker 2

So once he got in front of it again and then all was well in the world, so I fixed it. I did this because I think it's important that everyone understand how much research. Yeah, yeah. You know, like people in the trade know more about the objects. And I'm an academic, like, you know, a lot more than the professors, right?

00:29:22:04 - 00:29:38:03

Speaker 2

Yeah. And then you make the discoveries and you do the research and you're not scholars, and yet you are. And you know about the market. You offered that to us. Do you remember last couple million? It was more or less 3 million. I think it was more than that. Those three.

00:29:38:05 - 00:29:38:24

Speaker 1

Or whatever we.

00:29:39:00 - 00:30:03:18

Speaker 2

Done persuades. Gosh. But for you once that a panel with us here also. Yeah. And so it but it found a home. It did it did a it's happy. It's happy. It's in a private collection not some concert. Yeah. Whereas I know it's in a private collection. So that shall remain nameless. Yes. Okay. Identify a continent. No. But I it is our deal.

00:30:03:20 - 00:30:06:02

Speaker 2

We are discreet. Okay.

00:30:06:04 - 00:30:30:24

Speaker 1

But but speaking of all the research that that goes into, whether it's old master or, 20th century picture, or late 19th century picture, what for someone in the audience that is, is at a point in collecting, whether it's or maybe just starting or they van collecting, but they have considered working with an advisor, but they just don't know kind of how to start.

00:30:31:01 - 00:30:42:04

Speaker 1

What's a typical process when someone comes to, and you're working with them on, on kind of focusing vision or mission and strategies like how do you start.

00:30:42:06 - 00:31:00:03

Speaker 2

When you, you start with, well, it depends on what they want. But we sometimes I think we take them to museums, that's how we start and just, you know, see what they like. Also do some fairs and just in our I said, feed your eye, you know, look at some things and we go together now also like Christine as well, we sometimes also suggests what we think is nice.

00:31:00:03 - 00:31:24:16

Speaker 2

And there's a nice area that they should look at. What I also like is going to, sales of collections because collections and they're often in Paris, it's not very far from York. She who lives in Europe. And it gives you a sort of idea of how you can collect because this is high, low. And we're like on like our women, we combine Zara, for example, with Hermes, you know, so high, low this is what you often see.

00:31:24:16 - 00:31:52:16

Speaker 2

And it's like a real nice example how you can combine works, gives them some, you know, like inspiration and, and then proceed from there. We also look at books and, not so much at the social media, but more actual things. Yeah. I think going to doing what people are doing here, going to art fairs and, and really looking at what is available and what the kinds of art that, that you are immediately attracted to.

00:31:52:19 - 00:32:00:04

Speaker 2

Right? I mean, everyone has their internal compass. And I think that it's really important that people listen to that.

00:32:00:06 - 00:32:19:02

Speaker 1

And I think also knowing what you don't like is, is as important. Absolutely. Yeah. Like, you know, okay, we're not going to spend any more time in this area. We know that that's not, you know, invigorating your internal compass. So let's spend more time in these other areas. And you may also have suggestions that they haven't thought of.

00:32:19:04 - 00:32:27:20

Speaker 1

That's really helpful. I think, for anyone where this is their first time at Tefaf, do you have any advice as they navigate the fair.

00:32:27:22 - 00:32:58:11

Speaker 2

Wear comfortable shoes or, make sure you eat and have lots of coffee? No. I mean, the while I do advice, I think that, it is a visual feast here. There are so many things to see, and some of them are this big and and so intensely beautiful. But really, obviously, you're here to to look and to ask questions, and, to try to absorb as much as possible.

00:32:58:11 - 00:33:30:09

Speaker 2

I mean, we were only humans, so we can only look at so many incredible things at a short amount of time. And I think, you know, it can be a little overwhelming, you know? But as I said before, me and I don't know, like, ask questions because there are so many nuanced answers to, to the things that you see down there, like the provenance can be a fascinating, you know, how it how it moves down in, in royal provenance and how it ends up at an art fair in Maastricht 400 years later?

00:33:30:11 - 00:33:45:15

Speaker 2

The condition you should be curious about the condition of objects. I mean, at a fair like a tefaf. You know, that's also addressed before the opening. But I think that's it's an important thing to understand. Why do you.

00:33:45:15 - 00:33:58:20

Speaker 1

Recommend that with condition in particular for Old Master or any category, would you recommend, a pristine picture from a C or B artist versus a damaged artist picture?

00:33:58:20 - 00:34:17:01

Speaker 2

We talk about this all the time. Yeah. Yeah. Well, yeah. No. Better to have a good condition. Picture a picture in good condition or something. In good condition. And not from a lesser known name, perhaps. But, you know, you need to like it, though. And it's also sometimes I was going to say within couples, it's sometimes that the, the lady like something else than the husband.

00:34:17:01 - 00:34:22:06

Speaker 2

And it's sometimes also navigating between they can, you know, have their own little path.

00:34:22:08 - 00:34:46:09

Speaker 1

Okay. I want to leave time for questions from the audience, but I want to ask you all one question. Do you have what are you working on? What's coming up? Any exciting projects? Steve, what are you working on in specialty lending? Yeah, no, I think, you know, we we continue to grow, the activity. So if we, if we narrow it to just just art, I won't talk too much about, yachts or aircraft or anything.

00:34:46:11 - 00:35:07:09

Speaker 1

But we continue to expand our lending capacity. So, I think one of the things that's very important for clients is they're thinking about utilizing their art as as, a source of liquidity to, to finance their, their objectives is continuing to have access to the art. So being able to maintain it in their homes or, offices is, is important.

00:35:07:09 - 00:35:28:12

Speaker 1

And so we've been expanding that capacity across Western Europe. We're now also into, you know, into Hong Kong and Singapore. So, so we're very much focusing on, on this, this thread of, of lending activity and in order to support our clients even more broadly. So, we expect, to continue to, to grow that.

00:35:28:14 - 00:35:30:09

Speaker 1

Okay. I'm Christine.

00:35:30:11 - 00:35:51:23

Speaker 2

I'm a private dealer, so I, I don't have a huge turnover. So my, the things that I'm the, the paintings and drawings and sculpture that I work on or I don't have, like this massive influx at a time, you know, it's like when I worked at an auction house, there was like constant turnover of hundreds of objects on, you know, like every three months.

00:35:51:23 - 00:36:12:19

Speaker 2

And now I have the luxury of, of working with things that I find really beautiful and really intriguing. So that's what we try to do. You know, we try to find things that are interesting and and then write about it and tell you about it. So about. Yes. So I as you know, I left by, well, not even six months ago.

00:36:12:19 - 00:36:30:14

Speaker 2

I told Theresa I'm at the moment just to sort of fling. I was still enjoying some free time. Also doing a house in France. That's another sort of job, Derek. But I have some other, also, quite interesting. I do a lot of my Dutch drawings from the 17th century, Haarlem, from Haarlem figure studies. And I'm trying.

00:36:30:16 - 00:36:53:10

Speaker 2

I've done some on these artists called Beira. I've probably not names familiar to you, although you're, you know, a highly acclaimed audience. But, I'm. I'll work some more on those at the moment. And and I'm after I have my, I leave my, you know, my, non-compete. As I say, I will have my plans ready. So I'm slowly getting, you know, that's nice.

00:36:53:10 - 00:37:12:21

Speaker 2

And this fair is I'll come back next week because that's something I would going to say to you if you have time. These are great days. You will see lots of friends, new friends and great things. But it's not the best way sometimes to see objects because there are so many people around. If you can, it's always nice to come back like or the next day, tomorrow if you can, or even next week.

00:37:13:01 - 00:37:24:04

Speaker 2

And it's a nice way of sort of absorbing and you can see more, you can see the fit because you've seen the fair is huge, right. It's a nice way of getting coming back.

00:37:24:06 - 00:37:25:20

Speaker 1

Good, good advice to everyone.

00:37:25:20 - 00:37:31:03

Speaker 2

Your, you know, your courtesy stand. You know, you're there. Lots of chairs using.

00:37:31:05 - 00:37:31:18

Speaker 1

Lots of good.

00:37:31:18 - 00:37:33:21

Speaker 2

Shampoo. Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

00:37:33:23 - 00:37:44:14

Speaker 1

Okay, I want to see if anyone has questions. For anyone on the big on the couch. Claire. Any questions?

00:37:44:16 - 00:37:46:14

Speaker 2

And you can ask them privately later.

00:37:46:15 - 00:37:48:24

Speaker 1

You can ask us privately.

00:37:49:01 - 00:37:51:19

Speaker 2

And we're back at the. Yes.

00:37:51:21 - 00:37:52:12

Speaker 1

Okay.

00:37:52:14 - 00:38:00:03

Speaker 2

Thank you. Yes we have and I you. Oh shout all the way. We just let you.

00:38:00:03 - 00:38:08:03

Speaker 1

Okay Rick. Machine. Is it impolite to bargain gear when you want to buy?

00:38:08:09 - 00:38:09:05

Speaker 2

Absolutely not.

00:38:09:10 - 00:38:10:21

Speaker 1

Do you have barter?

00:38:10:23 - 00:38:16:14

Speaker 2

I think you should. You should ask for the asking price, not the price. But what is the asking price?

00:38:16:20 - 00:38:20:17

Speaker 1

Yeah. And what is a typical percentage? 1015.

00:38:20:17 - 00:38:21:09

Speaker 2

000.

00:38:21:10 - 00:38:21:21

Speaker 1

Okay.

00:38:21:24 - 00:38:40:02

Speaker 2

Yeah. Well, well, I don't know if you're familiar with sites like Art net of art, price, if you are, you know, you need to subscribe to. So you need to. But sometimes in a way you can't do a different object like furniture is more difficult. But with paintings. And if you know how to navigate, sometimes knows what they paid for.

00:38:40:02 - 00:38:45:03

Speaker 2

It depends, of course, if they made the discovery, if it's something that they pay, you know. Right. You need to know.

00:38:45:03 - 00:38:45:24

Speaker 1

Your point if.

00:38:46:02 - 00:38:49:04

Speaker 2

You. And that's why an advisor also comes in and you know.

00:38:49:04 - 00:39:08:22

Speaker 1

If the dealer just bought this great picture 12 months ago at auction. Yeah, for $1.2 million. But now has it here for 15 million. If you had a subscription to Art net, which is not a lot of money or art price, you could see that, okay, you spent one, two for it, you found it. You should to get a premium for that.

00:39:08:22 - 00:39:19:24

Speaker 1

But is the premium to 15 million I know, so I think you'd be paying 10%. Yeah. Oh yes. Oh 10,000,050 Judy okay, okay.

00:39:20:01 - 00:39:41:12

Speaker 2

I mean, you can always if you can ask what's your best price? You normally and then they will want to sell. At the moment they're quite, you know depending on and the I'm not they're not always bargains. If you go towards the end of the fair which is now the Thursday, as you know, there's not a second weekend, I'm not sure because some people think is their bargain now because, you know, at the end of the fair, have they sold it?

00:39:41:12 - 00:39:59:05

Speaker 2

But you can always, you know, and then there's off to the fair as well. So I guess in on the fair, you can be a little bit enamored by the atmosphere, by the champagne, by the sort of we. Yeah, I social out. Yeah. I like the it's like urine and nothing exists outside the fair we had this year.

00:39:59:10 - 00:40:10:02

Speaker 2

It's not a surprise. It's a whole. Absolutely make an offer. Yeah. Not set in stone. They will say differently maybe, but without previous years.

00:40:10:05 - 00:40:21:16

Speaker 1

Do you see that less articles or prices visually. Because I remember earlier it was every time you see the description there was a really.

00:40:21:18 - 00:40:22:12

Speaker 2

Well I think you'd.

00:40:22:14 - 00:40:32:08

Speaker 1

Notice maybe there more poor archives archival request by Picasso request. Is that is that something which I thought you hired?

00:40:32:10 - 00:40:51:19

Speaker 2

I did, I said the other way round, almost. I always thought that big before there was a Dutch dealer. But you some Dutch people may familiar with him. Look, vans who put this prices. This is back in the 90s. This big, you know, you didn't have you didn't need reading glasses. And it was like considered a little bit like those take it like ooh.

00:40:51:21 - 00:41:13:11

Speaker 2

And as well take up doesn't take for it is not a fair where the prices are usually listed. Not very often. It's more to smaller fairs one to engage and. Yeah and talk to you. So yeah one goes if I see you have to ask the price or. Yeah maybe for the cheaper objects. Yes. But I, I haven't seen many, I haven't seen it I say maybe have you.

00:41:13:11 - 00:41:37:23

Speaker 2

Yeah a little and yeah some of the drawings maybe and Yeah, that's part of why we're perceived as such an inside baseball world. But remember that the phrases and whatever language you speak. What are you asking? Not what's the price or how much. What do I ask it? And that's part of what you're describing as the style.

00:41:37:23 - 00:42:04:24

Speaker 2

Right. Directly because it starts it. But that's another because you're very committed to accessibility. Right. And you do all this research and you want to open up old, but there's a lack of transparency that is famous barrier world. Right. And to Balkan and Kristen's point about using art at an art price. And there's lots of other with eye and there's lots of new businesses that track the art market and give you information in real time.

00:42:04:24 - 00:42:24:17

Speaker 2

And auction results only auction results are public. You don't know what happens when it's a private sale with an auction house. I was a dealer. Right? So there's a kind of built in opacity. And what we hear as you, we, Jason and I and our team were the corporate art collection. We're happy to share information and best practices.

00:42:24:19 - 00:42:48:00

Speaker 2

It's Steve and his colleagues in the private bank who can help you on the on the financial side and I know the answer, but I'm going to ask a question because I can. People might be asking, what does it take for a client of JP Morgan or a prospect, JP Morgan or has an art collection? And it doesn't have to be in any particular area, but you have certain criteria.

00:42:48:02 - 00:43:09:17

Speaker 2

What are their criteria to get? Because the auction houses are happy to lend you money at much higher rates or much more competitive, but you got criteria. So what are the sort of baseline like points of entry to have the conversation? Their banker will continue to talk about the goals, but that's one part of the portfolio. What are the criteria.

00:43:09:18 - 00:43:31:05

Speaker 1

Yeah. So so yeah. So the banker will come to me with with, with any, any client relationship that we have where there's, there's an interest in accessing liquidity from, from the art collection. What we generally will look at is, you know, and I think this also relates to the tiff quality and some of the vetting and things.

00:43:31:05 - 00:44:02:16

Speaker 1

You know, a lot of that resonates with me very much right around, you know, well-documented, high quality, well-established pieces. So we generally look at, at a, at a value per piece of, of of about $1 million and up. We tend to look for a diversification of collateral. We can again work with more concentrated, collections. But, you know, we're looking generally for sort of five and above, you know, sort of pieces, in the collection.

00:44:02:18 - 00:44:18:22

Speaker 1

And, and I think this is one of the and Charlotte touched on, I think it's one of the things that, that we've worked very hard on and we think is, is, is is a real value add of we've very much expanded the, the, the locations and jurisdictions we're willing to look at in terms of where the art is.

00:44:18:22 - 00:44:37:00

Speaker 1

So, you know, it doesn't need to be in a free port only in this location. It can be in homes, it can be in offices, it can be in in free ports. That's fine as well. And it can be in Asia and it can be in the US, and it can be in Western Europe, and it can be really, but at the heart may not.

00:44:37:02 - 00:44:58:01

Speaker 1

We'll take that. That'll be an offline conversation. Maybe. But but but yeah. So so so those are some of the, some of the core criteria is really it's, it's it starts with the client relationship. And then it, it, it, it moves on to, you know, sort of the, the quality value, and, and sort of market established nature of the collection and diversification.

00:44:58:02 - 00:45:01:17

Speaker 2

That is done by a third party not affiliated with JP Morgan.

00:45:01:19 - 00:45:20:24

Speaker 1

Correct. That's. Yeah. And what's the loan to value ratio? Typically typically you're going to you're going to start at about 50%. And we can, you know, different factors can move us up or down from there. But but that's generally where we start the conversation. And again, this all starts with what are we trying to achieve.

00:45:21:01 - 00:45:45:21

Speaker 1

Right. So so is it is it the art supporting the art. You know, is this, is this to allow the existing collection to further the building in that collection? And so that's the sort of the use of proceeds and the purpose of what we're doing. Or is it to fund, you know, ongoing private investments, you know, to, you know, whether it's a company or is it is it, philanthropic?

00:45:45:21 - 00:46:08:02

Speaker 1

Is it is it to fund, you know, some sort of, charitable donation donations, you know, so, so a lot of the structure and the LTV, the loan to value and all of those things will, will, will come together to support whatever the objectives of, of the client are. My my question was so. That.

00:46:08:04 - 00:46:08:11

Speaker 2

00:46:08:12 - 00:46:20:10

Speaker 1

Hey, that's that's a. It it it again will depend but it as, as a as a general rule it'll start with the two, you know, so.

00:46:20:10 - 00:46:22:06

Speaker 2

It'll they have an asking price.

00:46:22:08 - 00:46:45:01

Speaker 1

Yeah. All the other question, if it, dealer or people from transit, these questions are stick to you see bank is the art market. It's not good at all is is there a privacy is going on. What's auction markets going to a first is going down the general road from what I hear is not good okay.

00:46:45:03 - 00:46:46:09

Speaker 2

You also live in London.

00:46:46:13 - 00:46:47:00

Speaker 1

Yes.

00:46:47:01 - 00:46:53:20

Speaker 2

It's less good and. Yeah. And then in New York district and Paris, London is having the, the extra added layer of.

00:46:53:22 - 00:47:06:03

Speaker 1

That is against losing that. What do you think would change that space. Is it like interest rates, global market, economic issues maybe that.

00:47:06:05 - 00:47:32:18

Speaker 2

Well, I think it's going to be interesting because we we had I think we mentioned before that there was a kind of a lack of kind of like blockbuster things that came to came to the auction block, not that haven't been on the market, but, you know, like in public auction. And that is with Sotheby's just made this big announcement that the founders Collection is, is, they're going to is it in May that they're sold in May 120 million.

00:47:32:18 - 00:48:04:23

Speaker 2

Yeah. And that that is a collection of really, really beautiful. Not everybody may know what we are referring to. What's the the Sandra Anderson Jordan and Thomas Saunders, the third collection from New York. What kind of material? Almost like offers old master paintings. But beautiful still lives. I mean, they collected primarily portraits and still lives and just really fine and excellent examples of very well known artists.

00:48:04:23 - 00:48:27:00

Speaker 2

Melendez quarter. Alcohol and sales. And so I think that will be an interesting indicator to see what the market is doing, because we haven't had those like, we I mean, we've had a couple but like really exceptional works. And I'm just like once your location work is there in New York, Brownlee's the highest value. One is one.

00:48:27:00 - 00:48:45:13

Speaker 1

Of the, one of the reasons. And it's not the only reason, but one of the reasons to in an uncertain market, to sell a blockbuster picture privately is you're not going to burn it if it doesn't sell. So you can quietly shop it around. If it doesn't sell, it's okay. If it comes up at auction and doesn't sell.

00:48:45:13 - 00:48:47:16

Speaker 1

It has a bit of a stigma for a while.

00:48:47:16 - 00:49:00:13

Speaker 2

Yeah, but this has a guarantee, apparently. Okay. The wholesale has a guarantee, so is guaranteed to sell, which could be a whole other. Yeah, that's a whole other discussion about irrevocable bids and guarantees and yeah.

00:49:00:15 - 00:49:05:06

Speaker 1

Yes. Is the reason for the, auction of the stars collection.

00:49:05:08 - 00:49:30:17

Speaker 2

I think they're just, I don't know, their money. No, I think maybe after 30 years, they just. I don't know, but they're very good friends of my for the collection. Maybe. Maybe they're getting into contemporary or. No, they're gonna I don't I don't know that of I don't know sometimes nowadays used to say that, that they want to sell just to sort of be still be alive and have it seems, you know, having and having, having had enjoyed it.

00:49:30:17 - 00:49:34:03

Speaker 2

And I'll just see it go and have a second life and if without it and.

00:49:34:04 - 00:49:42:01

Speaker 1

If they I don't know if they have children, but if it's not in the taste of the children and the children don't want to inherit it and they'd rather have the money. Yeah.

00:49:42:03 - 00:49:43:24

Speaker 2

Yeah.

00:49:44:01 - 00:49:54:14

Speaker 1

Well, thank you all for coming. Please come to our booth. We have a champagne toast at 530. We're announcing the prize for the fair. So please, please meet us there.

[MUSIC PLAYING]

I'm Charlotte Eyerman, Global Head of the JPMorgan Chase Art Collection. And it's my great honor and pleasure to be here with you at TEFAF. Doctor Robert Simon, who is going to share adventures and discoveries in Old Masters with us.

One of the things you're most famous for probably is your discovery of the Leonardo da Vinci's Salvator Mundi, the painting by Leonardo da Vinci that sold at Christie's at auction on November 15, 2017. So, Robert, you discovered it. How did that come about? You were in Louisiana?

Actually, I wasn't in Louisiana, but I did receive the auction catalog from this secondary auction house in New Orleans. One of the things that I do as an Old Master dealer is look in odd places for paintings, particularly in the United States since I'm based there. And the kind of the skill set that I've developed over the years in recognizing authorship of artists, particularly Italian paintings, one of my specialties, is something not relying on the big auction houses, like Sotheby's and Christie's, where things generally are very well cataloged, but in smaller auction houses where the expertise is.

Did you know it was a Leonardo when you saw it in the auction catalog or when you finally saw it?

I wish I could say that at the moment I saw it I thought it was that. I'm not-- that's a kind of-- one has to protect oneself from being a dreamer. And when I saw the painting, I thought it might well be a good painting by one of Leonardo's close followers, but it took two years of my work as art historian and writing, tracing provenance, and working in collaboration with conservators who were able to remove what was a lot of overpaint on the painting, later painting. And that was two years when the awful discovery, awful because it was very frightening, when I realized this was by Leonardo and it was the lost original.

Did you do all of your own provenance research or did you employ assistants, or your gallery staff, or special experts?

It was pretty much me alone, partly because the painting was a great secret. I first showed it to Nicholas Penny, Sir Nicholas Penny who was then the curator of paintings-- sculpture rather at the National Gallery of Art in Washington. He recognized it and believed it was by Leonardo.

There are arguably between 14 and 18 paintings by Leonardo in the world. And it's once been said that finding a painting by Leonardo is something like finding discovering a new planet, and it's kind of on that scale in the art world. And I think the one thing about Leonardo is that it goes beyond the art world because he was a universal genius and the painting was just one aspect of it. That's something that made this all the more significant.

Well, it's an amazing discovery.